Ford & Holden rivalry

[MethodX]

Nothing wrong with pushrods, they work and work well.

[rick69]

Originally Posted by Falcon_eAwesome

when Holden get rid of thier pushrods.

sleep: Oh no....here we go again

Originally Posted by Falcon_eAwesome

it seems atm that Holden's future isnt looking too good.

As I said earlier, it's only rumors and speculation....and also a lot of wishful thinking... Time will tell however.

[XA-Coupe]

That fact the Gen 3 has pushrods is irrelevant. Not whistanding some QC problems they are a brilliant motor. 11.6 unopened shows that the method of valve actuation is really a theoretical argument at a street car level.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by FFOracing

I think you'll find that the front suspension in AU was merely a revised version which appeared in EA (SLALS).

The AU front suspension was/is very different to the E series falcons, looking at both vehicles suspension will clearly show this.

The BA kept the AU double wish bone suspension, but did some modifications.
http://www.shift.nrma.com.au/motorin...alcon_xt.shtml

The BA sedan finally sees the live rear axle replaced by independent suspension on the base models. The independent double wishbone front end is retained, while the AU platform has been stiffened. Spring and damper calibrations, suspension mounts, the steering gear and ratios are all new.

The EA did have a major front suspension change, but so did the AU.

http://www.geocities.com/falconfacts.../xafalcon.html

XA Falcon
Suspension:
Front
Independent with coil springs and hydraulic double acting shock absorbers, stabiliser bar

http://www.geocities.com/falconfacts.../eafalcon.html

Ford EA Falcon
Suspension:
Front
Short and long arm, long spindle with single rate coil springs, twin tube telescopic shock absorbers and stabiliser bar

http://www.geocities.com/falconfacts.../aufalcon.html

AU Falcon
Suspension:
Front
Fully independent double wishbone
XR models - sports suspension

[MrSparkle]

[Sideshow Mel voice] I'd like to hear from Drizt!!! [/Sideshow Mel]

[XplosiveR6]

there is too much AU bashing in this thread, just remember these are your views and your view only. FFOracing dont generalise and say things like everyone who is not a one eyed ford supporter would only buy an AU. do you think they would have sold that many AUs if only ford enthusiests bought them? i and many others find AUs to be very stylish and techically advanced for its day, and the lines the AU have killed anything commodore had with its early 90s bubble shape.
also if the GeniIII was so good how come just about any compareo between a VTII SS and AUII XR8 the xr8 won for its superior drive, thanks to the huge AU advancements.

[FNQracing]

Originally Posted by EF_Dave

FFOracing dont generalise and say things like everyone who is not a one eyed ford supporter would only buy an AU. do you think they would have sold that many AUs if only ford enthusiests bought them?

Care to point out where I made that statement? I can't.

Originally Posted by EF_Dave

i and many others find AUs to be very stylish and techically advanced for its day, and the lines the AU have killed anything commodore had with its early 90s bubble shape.

Thats great. If you like it you like it. Thats whats styling is all about. Personlly I think it was the downfall of AU.

Originally Posted by EF_Dave

also if the GeniIII was so good how come just about any compareo between a VTII SS and AUII XR8 the xr8 won for its superior drive, thanks to the huge AU advancements.

When Holden introduced the GenIII, it saw a HUGE boost in power and performance for local V8's. A quantum leap. Meanwhile Ford was stuck with the 185Kw 5.0L which was no match performance wise. It took Ford quite some time to finally tickle their V8 and get some good figures out of it. It was just a bit too late. I think the 220 (and even the 200) versions of the AU XR8 are brilliant cars. I never said otherwise.

[DJM83]

FFORacing mate AU XR's were and still are the pick of the bunch styling/performance wise
My comment on the monaro was that ford has notihn to match it i agree u have a point it was and is an awesome car.
And yes i have drivin a blown six in a berlina yeah initial rush is quite good but thats it nothing else to rave about oh the fact they never came with a stick (manual) not sure y.
I agree with u on the GENIII it was a huge blow to ford UNTIL the 5.6 was realeased in the T series awesome car even the 200/220kw XR8's were bloodly brilliant cars
ur sitting here telling me you dont support either well come on u must have some sort of lean towards the red corner (your avitar) for 1 and ur attitude towards falcons?

[FNQracing]

Originally Posted by 00VenomXR

ur sitting here telling me you dont support either well come on u must have some sort of lean towards the red corner (your avitar) for 1 and ur attitude towards falcons?

Acutally, no. I will jump from brand to brand when either side has some good kit on offer. That ebbs and flows over the years. I have only ever owned 1 Holden to be honest.

My interests lie in homegrown cars of either persuasion.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

There's another thing to add to the theory of the Commodore being on borrowed time, the decision by GM not to use the Zeta platform that Holden spent millions developing. The VE was originally supposed to be launched early next year, now Denny Mooney has come out and said it won't be until mid way through the year. Why the delay? The huge cost cutting that is required to cover the development costs. By not being able to spread development costs over millions of cars world wide, Holden have to bear the brunt. I'm sure Holden are trying to cut a heap of cost out of the VE, with the potential to affect quality, equipment levels etc. I'd imagine the VE will have a big price rise too. This is only a theory but the development dollars can't be shared around any more and the dollars have to come from somewhere.

Development dollars are going to be very tight for all of GM; GM horror story kills Holden's global dream http://www.theage.com.au/news/Busine...?oneclick=true

The worsening financial and operational problems swirling around General Motors in the US are threatening to have an impact locally on Holden, one of GM's most profitable units.

GM's bonds were this week dumped on US markets, pushing the yields of the struggling automotive giant perilously close to junk status.

He said at the time there would be no reduction in capital spending, but US directors have now decided to kill off a new range of rear-wheel-drive vehicles due for release in 2008. This has thrown a spanner into Holden's production planning, as the new range was to be built on the Zeta rear-wheel-drive platform (chassis) that was designed and developed by Holden for the next Commodore.

Holden say that this wont effect the VE, yeah sure what else are they going to say, and why has the VE been delayed with no set date for a wagon.

Jsmilie: Happy days are here again
The skies above are clear again
So let's sing a song of cheer again
Ford days are here again : Jsmilie:

[MethodX]

Your not a very nice fellow.

Holden employs a lot of Aussies.
Without Holden youd all be driving 250 efi boat anchors.

Last i checked Ford in the US wasnt going too great either.
or Jaguar, or Volvo.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Your not a very nice fellow.

Holden employs a lot of Aussies.
Without Holden youd all be driving 250 efi boat anchors.

Last i checked Ford in the US wasnt going too great either.
or Jaguar, or Volvo.

Oh please read all my posts on this thread.

I have stated that Holden will not go broke, they will not leave Asustralia.

I'm only saying that Ford will overtake Holden in the next 3 - 5 years and I'm giving evidence for the few die hard Holden fans here.

it's just a bit of fun to get a lively debate happening, so far we have had some good posts.

All I'm saying is Ford Rules. :evil3:

[rick69]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Development dollars are going to be very tight for all of GM; GM horror story kills Holden's global dream http://www.theage.com.au/news/Busine...?oneclick=true



Holden say that this wont effect the VE, yeah sure what else are they going to say, and why has the VE been delayed with no set date for a wagon.

Jsmilie: Happy days are here again
The skies above are clear again
So let's sing a song of cheer again
Ford days are here again : Jsmilie:

You have issues, I think you need to see someone.

[johnydep]

Here's a good read;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Falcon If sales figures from all countries are combined the Falcon is one of the biggest selling names in world automotive history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Commodore

[rick69]

Originally Posted by johnydep

it's just a bit of fun to get a lively debate happening

*Cough*

More like inciting a flame war............

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by rick69

*Cough*

More like inciting a flame war............

It is you who inciting a flame war, if you have nothing to add to the debate just shut up.

This is a Ford forum which anyone can join and share their point of view on any subject.
If you think that Holden will remain No. 1 forever, please put down your theory, but stop using personal attacks on me, as you have done on other threads.

So, lets start again, why do you think Holden will be No. ! forever?

[MITCHAY]

Commodores are being exported whereas falcons arent. Ford might want to have an export market happening.

Whether or not Ford will take over in the next fews remains to be seen but i can tell you one thing for sure- All that matters is now and commodore is still outselling the falcon.

Projections and speculation dont mean a lot at all until they are outselling Holden. I find this subject particularly interesting considering the AU-BA evolution. Even with a much more changed model commodore still wins with minor cosmetics.

[rick69]

Originally Posted by johnydep

It is you who inciting a flame war

Oh really??? Then whats this.......

Originally Posted by johnydep

I said that I felt lile annoying a few people

and this.....

Originally Posted by johnydep

I'm not worried, just feel like annoying Commodore lovers

[rick69]

Ok, I can't really be bothered going deep into this subject but I'll give you a brief opinion on why Ford won't be No.1 for a long, long time yet.

1. Ford has to outsell not only Holden but also Toyota to get to No.1 (fat chance)
2. Commodore is selling as strongly as ever at the moment. Sales have been at a fairly consistant level for almost a decade. With the huge advancement in design and technology the all new VE will bring, I predict sales will go through the roof.
3. VE will have at least 12 months head start on the market compared to the next all new Falcon. It is quite possible that we will see another EL / VT situation.
4. Ford is "doing business with itself" with the Territory, with a significant amount of Territory sales = lost Falcon sales.
5. Ford simply does not have the plant capacity it needs. With the production line now shared, Falcon will never be able to be produced in the numbers needed to compete with Commodore. To increase capacity, Ford needs to invest heavily, and I can't see that happening in the near future as they are already in debt to the tune of $1bn+.
6. Holden will have a proper 'suv bodied' competitor for the territory next year.
7. While Falcon and Territory are Ford's main sellers, the rest of the Ford range you must admit is selling rather poorly. Just look at Fiesta vs Barina, Focus vs Astra, Rodeo vs Courier, etc etc.... Ford have no hope in hell of achieving their competitors figures in these segments..

There are plenty more I can think of but it's late and I'm tired...... sleep:

[Paxton]

1. When we say be number one, we mean having the best selling car. We are talking about beating the Commodore for the number one spot. Not going after toyota. That is pointless because we can't win.

2. The EL was selling well before the VT was released too. When it was released, and Ford's product was seen for what it really was, many many people migrated. With the release of the VE, and people see it for what it is, Ford will get fans. People will migrate and buy the next Falcon.

3. Big deal. Ford have learned their lessons, and we will NOT see another AU Falcon. It won't happen. The BA will be updated to final guise in September/October, and with the 6 Speed, more power in the 4.0 and a few more goodies, the BA will be at a position to better the VZ in sales.

4. Ford is not doing so. There has been no dramatic loss of Wagon sales, or sedan sales, however the Explorer is feeling it right now, but there is speculation of no longer bringing it here. I do agree that with more people buying Territories, SOME Falcon sales will suffer. I would have an XR6 Turbo in my Garage right now if not for the Territory. Take that for what you will.

5. Ford are running one shift, not around the clock like Holden. If we employed more shifts, we would have a dramatic rise in plant capacity. The Falcon is near paying itself off, and the Territory has made a huge dent in its loan also.

6. The made in Korea label will haunt that car into submission. Holden can't afford to make a 'real' SUV bodied Territory competitor, it goes on the cheap, and makes a Berlina wagon with a 5.7 in it. That'll sell. The spot the (adventra)II will have the same fate as the mark I.

7. The Fiesta had a record month, the new Focus is getting rave reviws and we only have one model, and not Classic and Astra. Look at Vectra. It sells poorly. If you argue, you obviously don't drive. If the Commodore looks like that, we will have another AU on our hands, because the Vectra is UGLY.


Method X, GM released a loss in the USA to the equivalent of $1Bn. Ford made a $1Bn profit. Ford in trouble, yeah right.

-Andrew

[MethodX]

Personally i like the Vectra, and its a good drive too.

If it was a Subaru or mazda ppl would be raving about it.

Holden controls Daewoo now, so has input into the cars they make, will be interesting to see the new SUV.

I love how u put your spin onto everything johnny
You should work in marketing.

[XplosiveR6]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Personally i like the Vectra, and its a good drive too.

If it was a Subaru or mazda ppl would be raving about it.

Holden controls Daewoo now, so has input into the cars they make, will be interesting to see the new SUV.

holden does not control daewoo, GM actually does, and they are simply selling them under the Australian GM arm, which is Holden.

[MethodX]

Last I heard Holden were given charge of Daewoo by GM
as we r in the Asian region.

Isnt Mooney on the Daewoo board now?

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by EF_Dave

holden does not control daewoo, GM actually does, and they are simply selling them under the Australian GM arm, which is Holden.

Holden couldn't stop Daewoo's slow death in Australia, so they pulled the plug; DAEWOO AUSTRALIA: Holden Withdraws Daewoo Brand
http://bankrupt.com/TCRAP_Public/040603.mbx

Holden are hanging out for a 4WD, so it's back to Daewoo again; Holden's 4WD woes
http://carsguide.news.com.au/news/st...E21822,00.html

Holden has its eye on a concept model shown by Daewoo at last year's Paris motor show known as the S3X, albeit in a heavily revised form.

The S3X sits on the same platform as GM's Chevy Equinox and not unexpectedly bares a passing resemblance to that vehicle.

But Holden aren't too worried, because they all believe that the Falcon/Territory range is no competition for their mighty Commo :evil_laug

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by rick69

Oh really??? Then whats this.......



and this.....

Go home mate
BTW i think this thread is going nowhere i think a mod should close it cause it will go on 4eva, with every1 and their own opinions (which thet are entitled to) its a vicious cycle, mods?

[Shonky]

Originally Posted by Rick69

Oh really??? Then whats this.......

and this.....

Evidence hurts hey johny...

Stuff It. This forum has always come across as a place where Ford and Holden owners can come to discuss Fords and the automotive industry in general. There has been a bit of AU bashing, a bit of commodore bashing, but at the end of the day they are both good cars each with their own faults and advantages.

Personally, I don't think that Holden is going anywhere for a long time, and that with out Holdens competition, Ford would be producing more cost effective [read: cr@p] vehicles. Ford and Holden rely on each other to keep each other honest and give them something to strive for.

[Shonky]

Originally Posted by 00VenomXR

BTW i think this thread is going nowhere i think a mod should close it cause it will go on 4eva, with every1 and their own opinions (which thet are entitled to) its a vicious cycle, mods?

ditto that. This is just an online punch up.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by 00VenomXR

Go home mate
BTW i think this thread is going nowhere i think a mod should close it cause it will go on 4eva, with every1 and their own opinions (which thet are entitled to) its a vicious cycle, mods?

Nah not yet, I think everyone needs to realise that Ford have pulled themselves out of the doom & gloom of a few years ago, and are now producing a world class car.

I'm sick of all the people I speak to through my work that bag the Ford product because of the troubles of the Ef - AU era.
It's time that more people realise that Ford have a good product.

[Jamie XR6]

Just one more thread to unsubscribe from.

[johnydep]

All right, close the thread down.

I learnt a lot about Ford while reading up, even found some new sites, since my current vehicle is a Ford.
I was one of the guys that bagged Ford's before.

Oh well, sorry guys