FORD will never outshine Holden-no matter what they do?

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by GTP-03

Im 37 years old, I was a Holden fan, my 2nd car was an EJ Holden, my third car was a HQ Holden. I loved Holdens I thought they were the greatest cars on the road, I honestly didnt give a stuff about Fords when I was younger, that was until I started reading about GTs and GTHOs in Street machine magazines.
I was amazed how they outgunned Holdens in the late 60s and early 70s and I was geniunly suprised that Holdens werent as quick as Fords in there respective models, I was a little confused and slightly mad that the brand I so closely followed werent the greatest and fastest cars off there time, althought they looked good, they were slower than Fords, this was suprising news!
I started reading more and more about Fords, mainly on GT Falcons, I started
going to GT days and then when I saw the cover of a Street Machine magazine in the 1993, the title said "KING COUPE". The car was the most menacing, toughest, imposing,threatning BEAST ever to grace the cover of Street Machine magazine ever in my opinion, It was a black XA GT coupe with a great big twin 4 barreled carbed engine sticking out the bonnet, I was hooked on Fords now, in particular modified GTs!
I now owned a Ford,(4.9 xc Fairmont), which I spent a lot of time and money modifying, I loved this car, I thought it was such a leap forward from my HQ and it now had a 351, 9 inch, lowered, GT bonnet, pearl blue paint, and the list goes on.
There was a problem though, the car was great to me, but every time I went on a cruise, there would always be more Holdens than Fords in the cruises. People would comment buy a Holden, time and time again! My mates were all into Commodores and modified Kingswoods, Premiers and Monaros! There was something wrong!
That feeling reoccured time after time, when the AU came out I thought I was the only Ford fan in the state, especially when we were getting cained in the V8s month after month, thankfully Ambrose came along and saved the next few years along with the new BA model, but now I have all those bad feelings all over again with Lowndes and the whole 888 team moving to Holden.
No matter what GM and Holden do, they never loose support, where as Ford never seem to have any, how the hell does Ford survive? Why the hell am I such a big Ford fan? The cars that attracted to me te Ford were a limited build which were made 30-40 years ago?
Why do Holden have so much support? We know our Fords are a better product but everyone seems to think they are superior? WHY?
Are we dilusional as Ford fans? Should we just give in and join the majority of people and just become Holden fans? Why do Holden outshine Ford nearly everytime? Somebody please tell me!!!

OHHHH WOE IS ME . I'm looking forward to how the holden fans will receive Craig Lowndes , as he defected from holden v8 supercars , claimed that he'd alwys been a ford fan and was finally in the right seat, and looking to develop ford v8 supercars and flog holden , only now to defect back to HOLDEN .
i wonder how a red blooded loyal fan will cop that. ????? :togo:

[Eu-GenixX]

i'm still a bit iffy about lowndes.... i think he wanted to race for 888... not necessarily for holden.. whereas Whincup is eager to drive the holden.. .. tho perhaps thats just my perception of the situation from the media....

[tapeworm]

Originally Posted by Chilla

Holden is also yankee (General Motors). Ford (America) was built in OZ before Holdens were ever thought of. I vividly remember seeing one of the first Holden display 215's (FX), driving around Camden showground in Sydney in late 1948. Whereas Ford were built / assembled here prior to the first world war. The Holden name was lifted from a coach building firm that made bodies for quite a few different car brands in the early days of our motoring history. Ford has a strong history in this country, lets not be confused about that!.

I know..just dropping an example of how Joe public sees things from my experience.
Recent example was when I was working on a commo with the 3.8 v6 at work, a truckie trots over, has a gander and say's 'great aussie engine, tough as nails these things, heaps better than the Fords. I mention it's Buick-he's blown away. Alot of my friends are in families where they only buy Holden cars, I have mums etc. actually telling me it's because they are Australian, why support yankee Fords? etc. That's why I said what I said.

I rule also.

[snappy]

Originally Posted by beaver700

Couldn't of put it better. Global warming has got to be the biggest scam ever perpetrated on all people

They dont call it global warming anymore (evidense of cooling went public) so you may notice they call it climate change now.

Anyway back on topic

[Callie]

Originally Posted by rocketscientist

Because...Holden is... AUSSIE! AUSSIE! AUSSIE! OI! OI! OI! :rolleyes:

In SA your beloved Holden runs as a Chev ss Lumina I never liked chev nor will I Ford Aus best ride by far.

[onfire]

Have a look at the majority of people flying the Holden flag high and proud.
I'd rather they didn't start driving Fords.

[vztrt]

lol, I wouldn't care if Holden has more Fans. You just want Ford fans with enough money to keep buying new Fords every 5 years or so. Were getting more of the private market sales (remember Holden currently is getting propped up by the SA and Fed government) which means bigger profits and more money to go into R&D.

[XAJKX]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

I do not think the AU was a mistake.
The AUII and III were quite reliable and solid.
I just came back from a tennis committee meeting. I drive a VTII, while a fellow member, 'Ian' drives an AU. I think the AU looks far, far better and fresher than the VT, and far more sleek. The VTII looks comparatively tired.

When I asked him 'how is he AU' a long time ago, he replied, 'it's the best car I've ever had. Never broken down, and drives beautifully'.

The initial styling was questionable, but I think the AUII and III looked fantastic, and to this day still look far, far more fresh than the VT, VTII or VX.

OK OK, so 10 years later after the release of the car people think the AU looks OK , perhaps "Fresher" or more reliable than the VT Commodore, I happen to agree, but the public walked away from Ford in droves, NO-ONE Wanted an AU (except Ute)

Is anyone old enough to remember their first impressions of seeing the VT and AU?

I am, It was Pride that Australia could build a car world class car like the VT and disgust / horror / shock / disbelief that ford had released "That thing" as a "Falcon".

At the time 99% of people thought the same, look at the sales figures (VFACTS) from back then. The EF / EL had MASSIVE Sales by comparison.

The car nearly sank Ford Australia - the "Fresh" design of AU Was a HUGE Mistake at the time.

Ask any dealer about the pain they went through with AU, the Commodore sold 2 to 1 or perhaps 3 to 1 AU Falcon.

It was however perhaps a timely "Wake-up" to FMC to LISTEN to what people want.

Then bring on Geoff Polites (An ex Ford Dealer and in touch with the public) and things like Turbos, 5.4 Litre BOSS v8s and money for Motorsport etc.

God bless Geoff.

No sales = No Ford - AU was a MISTAKE a HUGE Mistake.

[Wally]

I don't know if 99% of people thought badly of the AU, but I do know a few of my Ford stalwart mates got into Holdens when their leases were up, rather than migrate to the new shape.

[Mr X]

Originally Posted by Wally

I don't know if 99% of people thought badly of the AU, but I do know a few of my Ford stalwart mates got into Holdens when their leases were up, rather than migrate to the new shape.

The poor old AU.They seem to look better to me as they get older though.Tough as old nails too.We had a cab at work -AU2 which did 780,00 km on the original short motor.In its life it had one new head,one new trans,some ball joints,tie rod ends periodically and of course brakes.Not bad hey.

The owners son now uses it as a daily driver.

[greenfoam]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

OHHHH WOE IS ME . I'm looking forward to how the holden fans will receive Craig Lowndes , as he defected from holden v8 supercars , claimed that he'd alwys been a ford fan and was finally in the right seat, and looking to develop ford v8 supercars and flog holden , only now to defect back to HOLDEN .
i wonder how a red blooded loyal fan will cop that. ????? :togo:

I think you'll find the vast majority of Holden / Lowndes fans have backed him the whole time he's been driving a "Falcon" He's still been my favorite each year anyway. I don't buy into the whole Nascar spec body shell racing thing they are both the same car in the end

[bathurst77]

Motor racing does have alot do do withit
I remember in the late 1990s a mate looking at a pic of Allan Moffat's 77 Falcon, admiring it.
I said
"Yep, I buy falcons now because of how they won that race"
He replied
"yeh, and I buy holdens coz they never won any after..."
(ok they did win a few in the 80s and 90s, but not many)

[GT69]

The differences. Ford will bring in an ecoboost 2litre with the same power as holdens new v6. The difference is, the person buying the ford wont drive it as if its a supercar. The holden v6 driver will.


Honestly, im glad holdens exist. Im glad they out sell ford as well. Im also glad to see ford gaining ground and moving towards profitability and holden not being able to afford the vf face lift. Im a betting man, but I bet smart. Let holden owners crow as much as they like, ford gets my money.

Also note the high percentage of new ford owners that love the falcon and then take note of the holden fans that are slinging all the mud in your direction. You'll notice that your driving an 08/09 falcon. There driving an 84 holden. Or a 98 excel.

[ieatsports_cars]

Originally Posted by bok1

after the troubles that i have had with my vessv i will never buy another holden again.i have just traded in on a ego fg f6 and waiting for delivery.i had the ss back in for warranty over 40 times thats right 40 times.i hope that i will have better luck with the f6.marketing drives home why you should buy ones product pure and simple.



phil

Hi Phil , No matter what sort of vehicle you will buy, you will get problems no matter of what manufacture, we are not perfect when putting cars together. My mother brought a new toyota parado it was crap , I hope you dont expect your ford to be trouble free either, I love my ford too bits and it has had a few problems but that cant be helped. On the other hand i wish you all the best with your new f6 they are a truly great car. :-) :

[Sharka]

Having owned over 5 different type holdens(355 HQ,Brock rep commdore,utes,GTR torana etc) an driven many late model holden(As me old mans a big holden man)
For me it was many things that made me see the light for one 3 of the holdens near killed me ,one in a fire,One i crash as the tie-rod end broke,another me mate crash with me in it just after I traded it.....
then the fact i had many mech probs motors blowing up, trans failing
I then decided to listen to me ford mates an brought a EB GT rep since then I've never looked back have now owned many XR8's Fairmont v8 falcon 6's all have been real good to me,and have taken a hammering at times but never have let me down too majorly or cost me much to keep on the road...

As to holden owners ,me mates a great example of a holden nut brought a so-called tidy HQ ute 8k+

At this stage he has changed everything but the steel ,an chassis
cracked block,2 trans gone,wheel broke off,paint gone etc, etc 20k+
still his good ford diff still going strong...

[red_hotxr6]

I love my ford because it looks great, it drives beautiful, because i cant wait to get into my ford. I love it because its a ford...my car will always be a ford...its simply...my car.

[KW XRT]

Originally Posted by XAJKX

20 years of Ford Australia Management Mistakes doesn't help.

Dropping the V8 engine in the 80s
.

We get that alot how ford ended the V8 and Holdeb didb't but the truth is Holden canned the V8 also the only difference between ford and holden was Street Machine campain that went along the lines of V8 till 98.Probably showing my age a bit but the holden V8 was gone for all money.Just marginally better timing that's all as Street Machine got a chance to save it as the ford V8 was already gone.

More on the holden thing not that I drove them much but I always hated how holdens drove they were so bad compared to anything but there owners always thought they were awesome.More so the HQ'S on, then SM did a story RE: the front end geometry of the HQ holden and why it was as bad as it was a few years ago.They expalained why it understeered so bad and how holden held australia to ransome with antiquated tyres and stuff.Then and explained the BULL S HIT radial tuned suspension and I final had confirmed how I felt all along that they were pieces of sh it.Not only that they were designed like that.
I have alwys maintained that holden has saved so much money selling the crap they did that they put that money into racing rightly or wrongly.

[gocruzin]

Mate Im Ford right down to my undies, Iv'e had holdens, don't like em. I think the reason you see so much support for holden is because of all the shirtless trout mouthed bogans who constantly have to justify their chosen marque, while us ford fans know we have a superior product and don't need to mouth off about it every time. actions speak louder.

[gocruzin]

Heres a little nugget of info. Henry Ford aproached holden to build fords when he was looking to set up here in OZ, but backed out when he saw how ordinary their build quality was so he set up shop himself in geelong. True story

[BFZ Wagon]

Actually. Anyone who's a car history nerd like me knows that Ford Australia originated as an offshoot of the Ford Motor Company of Canada back in 1925. At the time, the Canadian Ford Motor Company was separate to Ford in the USA.
Holden's Motor Body Builders did assemble Fords on behalf of Ford Australia for a short time while the Ford factory in Geelong was built.
Holden was taken over by GM in 1931.

Blind brand loyalty does exist everywhere. For instance, There are some people down the street from me who are Holden crazy. At one stage they had a VT, VY & VE in their driveway.. But a few months ago, they replaced their Aussie built VT for a brand new Viva (which as we know is just a Daewoo Lacetti with a Holden badge) So even though it's not really a Holden, these people obviously only care that it has a Holden badge.

In regard to Holden biased car sites bagging Ford for having a car manufactured in Asia, the thing that people out there don't get is, it's still a FORD!!
Ford only have a couple of vehicles that are made in Asia. Only 2 are not strictly Fords (The Ranger/BT-50 twins & the Escape)

Holden on the other hand get a lot of their vehicles from Asia. The majority of them are now from Daewoo in Korea which they just slap a Holden badge on. At last count there were 4 (just from Daewoo alone!) The Barina (Kalos), Viva (Lacetti) (now replaced by the Cruze), Epica & Captiva. The only one not from Daewoo is the Colorado which is made in Thailand and is basically an Isuzu D-Max.

People out there don't usually think for themselves and tend to go with blind loyalty or just listen to whatever they see or read on the Internet/Radio/TV etc.

As long as Ford & Holden continue to build cars here in Australia, I don't really care who's the best. It means that there are Aussies out there out there with jobs in Ford/Holden assembly plants. Sure, local car production has taken a big hit in the past 20 years but at least the companies are still here in some way still building cars & components locally.

I prefer Fords myself, as they seem to be better built and are more pleasing on the eye. But that's my personal choice.

End of :

[Chilla]

Originally Posted by shyun

Very true. I remember a few months back FoxFM had a competition for a v8 (XR8 or SS) and Matt asked Troy what he wanted and he said the XR8. Then Matt had a go at him saying why would you want that yankee crap get an 'Australian' Holden.

Ignorance is bliss!!!

[turbo4me]

Well i reckon that a Holden driver that bags the Ford product is just trying to justify his poor purchasing skills.

I have had Fords all my life and never had a big problem with any of them, and the Ba i have now is a dream

[Thankfull]

Originally Posted by GTP-03

Im 37 years old, I was a Holden fan, my 2nd car was an EJ Holden, my third car was a HQ Holden. I loved Holdens I thought they were the greatest cars on the road, I honestly didnt give a stuff about Fords when I was younger, that was until I started reading about GTs and GTHOs in Street machine magazines.
I was amazed how they outgunned Holdens in the late 60s and early 70s and I was geniunly suprised that Holdens werent as quick as Fords in there respective models, I was a little confused and slightly mad that the brand I so closely followed werent the greatest and fastest cars off there time, althought they looked good, they were slower than Fords, this was suprising news!
I started reading more and more about Fords, mainly on GT Falcons, I started
going to GT days and then when I saw the cover of a Street Machine magazine in the 1993, the title said "KING COUPE". The car was the most menacing, toughest, imposing,threatning BEAST ever to grace the cover of Street Machine magazine ever in my opinion, It was a black XA GT coupe with a great big twin 4 barreled carbed engine sticking out the bonnet, I was hooked on Fords now, in particular modified GTs!
I now owned a Ford,(4.9 xc Fairmont), which I spent a lot of time and money modifying, I loved this car, I thought it was such a leap forward from my HQ and it now had a 351, 9 inch, lowered, GT bonnet, pearl blue paint, and the list goes on.
There was a problem though, the car was great to me, but every time I went on a cruise, there would always be more Holdens than Fords in the cruises. People would comment buy a Holden, time and time again! My mates were all into Commodores and modified Kingswoods, Premiers and Monaros! There was something wrong!
That feeling reoccured time after time, when the AU came out I thought I was the only Ford fan in the state, especially when we were getting cained in the V8s month after month, thankfully Ambrose came along and saved the next few years along with the new BA model, but now I have all those bad feelings all over again with Lowndes and the whole 888 team moving to Holden.
No matter what GM and Holden do, they never loose support, where as Ford never seem to have any, how the hell does Ford survive? Why the hell am I such a big Ford fan? The cars that attracted to me te Ford were a limited build which were made 30-40 years ago?
Why do Holden have so much support? We know our Fords are a better product but everyone seems to think they are superior? WHY?
Are we dilusional as Ford fans? Should we just give in and join the majority of people and just become Holden fans? Why do Holden outshine Ford nearly everytime? Somebody please tell me!!!

Going back in time....feeling used to run high on the mounds at Bathurst, when the GTR XUI came over the rise in the lead all the Holden fans cheered, until Conrod straight when the HOs just gunned them down....Holden had backed down in V8 form at the race Track when faced with a well sorted GTHO....

They where different times...Henry Ford the II had an open Cheque book policy, the competition was to be out bored and out stroked on Every Platue.
When Holden claimed a class Victory in 1970 with the XU1, they refered to it as a hollow Victory that went with out notice.

But Ford noticed....every GTHO phase III was sold at a loss the following year, so that the Ford would fall into the same price class as the Torana XUI, as the classes at Bathurst where decided by retail price.

Ford would not even allow Holden to claim a class Victory at Bathurst...
The Gloves where off as far as Ford was concerned....

History shows that Ford was forced to take the bat and ball home in 1972, due to the super car scare in the press.

Dont worry about the Holden fans...they do not know any better.

Holdens where meant to be a cheap car, for the family man who would have liked to buy a Ford but did not have that much money.....

Ford on the other hand.....usualy when they build a car it becomes part of the Ford Legend.

Example in 1966 what did Holden have to offer ? the Ford GT 40 was doing 220 mph down Mulsane straight at Le Mans 1st 2nd 3rd with no less than Henry Ford the second waving the starting Flag......

When it comes to the crunch...Ford designed the V8....there is nothing special about owning a Common...dore.

Henry Ford the II was a rev head....he was some individual....show your individuality.

Cheers

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Thankfull

...............
Example in 1966 what did Holden have to offer ? the Ford GT 40 was doing 220 mph down Mulsane straight at Le Mans 1st 2nd 3rd with no less than Henry Ford the second waving the starting Flag......

..........Cheers

I think your whole post was fanciful, but that thing about comparing a GT 40 with a Holden is the best oranges and apples argument I've seen for ages. Well done.

[gocruzin]

Holdens are Opel in Germany Vauxhall in England Pontiac in America and Daewoo in Japan a Ford is a ford no matter what country it's in

[Thankfull]

Originally Posted by Wally

I think your whole post was fanciful, but that thing about comparing a GT 40 with a Holden is the best oranges and apples argument I've seen for ages. Well done.

My entire post was based on facts after studying the History of the Ford Motor company in Australia and over seas....

Heres another interesting bit of History....remember back to 1987 when Holden was banging the Drum, about the Group A Holden VL...?

The only problem was they ran up against the Group A Ford at Bathurst that year the Sierra Cosworth....so much for the Holden Group A V8.

Even Brocky ended up driving the Group A Ford in the end to try and get another Bathurst Win...

Yes Ford Australia really did sell every GTHO Phase III at a loss, so that it fall into the same price class at Bathurst, as the GTR XUI back in 1971....

Yes Ford really did design the V8....

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Thankfull

Going back in time....feeling used to run high on the mounds at Bathurst, when the GTR XUI came over the rise in the lead all the Holden fans cheered, until Conrod straight when the HOs just gunned them down....Holden had backed down in V8 form at the race Track when faced with a well sorted GTHO....

They where different times...Henry Ford the II had an open Cheque book policy, the competition was to be out bored and out stroked on Every Platue.
When Holden claimed a class Victory in 1970 with the XU1, they refered to it as a hollow Victory that went with out notice.

But Ford noticed....every GTHO phase III was sold at a loss the following year, so that the Ford would fall into the same price class as the Torana XUI, as the classes at Bathurst where decided by retail price.

Ford would not even allow Holden to claim a class Victory at Bathurst...
The Gloves where off as far as Ford was concerned....

History shows that Ford was forced to take the bat and ball home in 1972, due to the super car scare in the press.

Dont worry about the Holden fans...they do not know any better.

Holdens where meant to be a cheap car, for the family man who would have liked to buy a Ford but did not have that much money.....

Ford on the other hand.....usualy when they build a car it becomes part of the Ford Legend.

Example in 1966 what did Holden have to offer ? the Ford GT 40 was doing 220 mph down Mulsane straight at Le Mans 1st 2nd 3rd with no less than Henry Ford the second waving the starting Flag......

When it comes to the crunch...Ford designed the V8....there is nothing special about owning a Common...dore.

Henry Ford the II was a rev head....he was some individual....show your individuality.

Cheers

Good post; Ford's heritage is far greater.

Holden's heritage is something only a hooligan or a feral would be proud of.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Thankfull

My entire post was based on facts after studying the History of the Ford Motor company in Australia and over seas....

Heres another interesting bit of History....remember back to 1987 when Holden was banging the Drum, about the Group A Holden VL...?

The only problem was they ran up against the Group A Ford at Bathurst that year the Sierra Cosworth....so much for the Holden Group A V8.

Even Brocky ended up driving the Group A Ford in the end to try and get another Bathurst Win...

Yes Ford Australia really did sell every GTHO Phase III at a loss, so that it fall into the same price class at Bathurst, as the GTR XUI back in 1971....

Regardless both the HO and the XU1 are legend and liked both of them at the time.

[Thankfull]

Originally Posted by Wally

Regardless both the HO and the XU1 are legend and liked both of them at the time.

I think if you offered a person the choice of owning only 1 of the following 2 cars, they would be forced to give it some thought...

Car number 1. GTHO XY Phase III - Color Vermillion Fire....
Credentials Winner out right Bathurst Winner in Class Bathurst 1971

Car number 2. GTR XUI Torana - Color White with Black paint outs
Credentials 2nd place Outright Bathurst 2nd place in Class Bathurst 1971

Tough choice eh! my money would be on most people taking the XY GTHO as first choice...

[Wally]

Well you could be right, then again you could be wrong. I suspect neither would be sitting idle without owners any one time.

The awkward thing about trawling for historical fact when you weren't actually alive at the time, is that those facts tend to change as societal attitudes change.

The internet hasn't made things easier over the years; once upon a time the Ford V Holden thing was just an excuse to give a bit of ribbing (e.g your line about Holden owners not being able to afford a Falcon), but since the advent of the netboards every cyberthug that can has spilled out vitriol predicated on an era they have no first hand knowledge of.

It's a shame those backhanded jibes and yarns made 40 years ago have grown legs and used to cleave what has become a great divide.