A Badge Engineered XR8?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Did you not read my post... XR8 = More cars = cheaper R&D = cheaper retail pricing.

GS would have to have more standard features to differentiate it from the XR8, thats a no brainer... but its under equiped now for most even without the XR8... More standard features in the GS, and more features in the GT and **** GT-P / GT-E off... They would sell more cars and have more money tothrow on future upgrades...

Yep running a multi million dollar motor vehicle manufacturer is that simple.

XR8 has been dropping in sales every year for at least a decade. Suddenly that will turn around? Why?

If V8 is such a huge draw why were there stuff all V8 fairmonts sold yet G6ET is a huge winner?

And these proposed XR8 sales, where do they come from?

Canibalise XR6T/FPV sales.....stupid.
Steal from Holden......yeh right....that would be like Patrol stealing from Cruiser....If XR8s were free most SS buyers would still not drive one.

Why do you not drive a Holden V8?
How many Holdens have you actually bought?

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yep running a multi million dollar motor vehicle manufacturer is that simple.

XR8 has been dropping in sales every year for at least a decade. Suddenly that will turn around? Why?

If V8 is such a huge draw why were there stuff all V8 fairmonts sold yet G6ET is a huge winner?

And these proposed XR8 sales, where do they come from?

Canibalise XR6T/FPV sales.....stupid.
Steal from Holden......yeh right....that would be like Patrol stealing from Cruiser....If XR8s were free most SS buyers would still not drive one.

Why do you not drive a Holden V8?
How many Holdens have you actually bought?

Well some people do actually go out and compare cars that they buy... A bloke wants a V8 and goes out and looks at the SS, then goes to Ford. Ford tells him yes we have a base level V8 that starts at 57 kay plus on roads... While the SS is mid 40's plus on roads... Makes the decision so much easier doesn't it...

We bought a VE Calais V8 6 Litre back in 2006 because Ford only offered the BF Fairmont Ghia with the 230 kw 5.4... It had nothing compared to the Calais which was quicker and overall a nicer car.. But thats beside the point..

G6ET actually porforms, Fairmont Ghia V8's were always slower then Holden from VT onwards... Nothing wrong with Fairmont Ghia V8's but when you have a 175 Kw V8 compared to a 220 - 225 etc 5.7 it really does struggle on paper.

Now we have a proper V8 and Ford does not have the coin to make use of it... What a joke.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by flappist

And these proposed XR8 sales, where do they come from?

Canibalise XR6T/FPV sales.....stupid.
Steal from Holden......yeh right....that would be like Patrol stealing from Cruiser....If XR8s were free most SS buyers would still not drive one.

Some people do jump camps and its these guys that we want to keep with the Ford brand I assume... I know a few mates came over with the XR6T's and a couple bought XR8's. They are now driving SS's as there was no XR8's and that had had their fun with the 6T's...

Not stealing sales from anywhere but keeping what was already there is the point...

[Dave R]

G6ET is a winner because the motor isn't a 220kw boat anchor. Or did you think that people would buy a V8 Fairmont simply because it is a V8? The G6ET has actually proven that a solid powerplant = sales. Slow Fairmont V8 = dead in the water. Fast G6ET = sales success. And what's the bet that alot of the middle aged G6ET buyers would have actually preferred a V8?

XR8s didn't sell because the GM V8 was/is clearly better than the 5.4 boss. People aren't robots- who wants to pay a premium on purchase price and insurance for an XR8 that's neck and neck with the six??? It's all about product and that's why the SS sells - it's faster and sounds better than the Ford V8. The Boss just couldn't compete with the SS. All this "holden buyers would never buy Fords" mutter is crap. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone who buys an SS Commodore is a one eyed Holden worshipping bogan.

Why did XR6Ts sell so much better than XR8s? Because they had decent performance behind them. Do you think that people just stopped liking the XR8 for no reason? And currently the only mid $40k V8 sedan option is the SS Commodore.. that might be where sales come from. If you want a V8 and have less than $50k to spend, you are going to buy an SS Commodore, there is nothing else on the market!! Ford have isolated their V8 sales to the premium price bracket that only a certain percentage of the population can afford. Now let's imagine Ford has a supercharged V8 entry for under $50k, that's going to turn alot of heads.

[RAPID_BA]

The 5.4 boss is a great engine punished because it was wrapped in a great car that was also heavier. The holdens in the 5.7 were no quicker and they had a roughie car hooked up to it (vt-vz)

The ls2 was fractionally faster and mod for mod but its hooked up to a billycat, the 5.4 is attached to a really nice car

Our i6 is pretty impressive, doesnt make the 5.4 no good

[flappist]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Well some people do actually go out and compare cars that they buy... A bloke wants a V8 and goes out and looks at the SS, then goes to Ford. Ford tells him yes we have a base level V8 that starts at 57 kay plus on roads... While the SS is mid 40's plus on roads... Makes the decision so much easier doesn't it...

We bought a VE Calais V8 6 Litre back in 2006 because Ford only offered the BF Fairmont Ghia with the 230 kw 5.4... It had nothing compared to the Calais which was quicker and overall a nicer car.. But thats beside the point..

G6ET actually porforms, Fairmont Ghia V8's were always slower then Holden from VT onwards... Nothing wrong with Fairmont Ghia V8's but when you have a 175 Kw V8 compared to a 220 - 225 etc 5.7 it really does struggle on paper.

Now we have a proper V8 and Ford does not have the coin to make use of it... What a joke.

WE bought?

I asked you, not your parents.

Bottom line is Ford and FPV design, build and sell cars. We just buy them.

You either buy them or you do not. I did not buy a FG FPV because they did not make anything I wanted at the time. I wanted an F6E, they did not make one so I went elsewhere.
Not to holden though, the last holden I looked at buying was a 2002 GTS coupe but the dealer was a dork.

Now you are pushing this whole XR8 thing. Assuming the they did make one and it sold 1040 units (20 a week) how much cheaper do you REALLY think they would be than a GS?
$1000? ($1,040,000) $2000? ($2,080,000) $11,000 to get it to $45k retail ($11,440,000)?

But in reality the whole thing is a marketing exercise. Ford have shown a strong trend to positioning themselves as a "modern forward thinking company". They have dropped a lot of baggage that has been unprofitable or unpopular such as the wagon, RTV, pursuit, V8 sedans and utes, fairmont, futura, fairlane, LTD etc.

They could have gone either way with the GS or XR8 and they chose GS.
If it had been XR8 it would have been EXACTLY the same price so all you are really doing is whinging like the "fairmont" or "T series" tragics who can't get over their beloved icon being called something else.

[Polyal]

I'm sorry but I am almost offended by your continual high horse attitude when it comes to vehicle ownership and being able to have an opinion.

Did you ever stop and think that maybe some people here don't by particular cars because they just are not up to scratch? And as mentioned, there are some swinging buyers and the choice between the GS and a SS or V is not a hard one and why Holden sell in better numbers....we will see if the Miami venture is a profitable one but so far it seems the sales are underwhelming.

You can run a business thinking that if you simply build something that people will automatically buy it because it's better at one area. The GS could have 400kws and it still won't make a difference, it's about the package with the XR8, probably more so than the GT.

You love the F6 analogy so here is one for the XR8, why is it that the GT continually outsold the F6 previously even though the F6 was the better car? This mentality is the same, but in this case the XR8 could only go so much with the 5.4 without the GT badges....

A na 5.0 would be a winner, even pegged at the same 290kws simply because of the better engine characteristics, less weight, and in theory better fuel consumption...all things that the ss did better. I don't think the marketplace has changed that much, it's simply that Ford has let itself fall behind for whatever reasons, the consumer doesnt care, and we are spoilt for choice even from other performance cars in other sectors that offer similar performance for less coin.

[Luke Plaizier]

I reckon the GT outsold the F6 because it had better brand recognition - and all the other elements that are involved with the idea of a 'brand'. History, prestige, respect.

Just like the XR8 has better brand recognition than the GS.

We can all dream about new models requiring R&D and money and all the things that Ford Oz would love to do but just can't. If we are to assume that an NA 5.0 won't see the light of day, then from that we can assume that the XR8 of everyone's dreams will not come to be.

So here we are now. No XR8. Continued debate about what an XR8 SHOULD be will mean the XR8 will stay extinguished. Just like the GTHO.

So there's an opportunity begging here. A badge engineered XR8 sold at the same price as a GS is a quick way to get the XR8 badge out there again. The brand would survive just that bit longer and (perhaps) live on to fight another day.

I understand the concern about the price though. I'm willing to concede that the last minute decision to keep the GS in the FPV fold was because they couldn't sell the XR8 in the $40k price range without losing money on each car sold. THAT is the real hurdle that would have to be overcome here - the price/perception hurdle of a shared GS/XR8.


Lukeyson

[prydey]

forgetting about v8 for a moment,

BA falcon was given a verdict by most journo's as being a better car than the equivalent commodore. faster, more fuel efficient, better interior etc etc. apart from a couple of non consecutive months, commodore outsold it.

BF falcon - same story up until the release of VE and even then it managed to hold its head high in every review. same story with sales though. commodore outsold it.

FG falcon - easily the better car upon release, 5 star ancap and all the rest. even VE2 isn't really better dynamically, it just has more tech but commodore sells nearly double the falcon.

so....

why do people think that if ford release an xr8, it will somehow impact on ss sales??

for ford, its not about "well the mob down the road do it so we'll do it too"!! they were doing it, and nobody was buying them, so they stopped. 90% of those whinging on here about it not being built will never buy one, but it gets embarrassing down the pub when they can't win the arguments!

[RAPID_BA]

Really, the GS IS the XR8. Just like the G6ET is the fairmont Ghia, we can all cry that xr8 is no more or fairmont ghia is no more but its here wearing s different badge.

Fairmont ghia buyers go and buy a G6ET

XR8 buyers go and buy a GS or XR6T

They are still here!

[Polyal]

This is like hitting your head against a brick wall....I suggest people read the real XR8 thread.

You wonder why Fords on a downward spiral, they seem to just expect sales to come their way, doesn't work like that.

The XR6T is not a replacement for the XR8.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

Really, the GS IS the XR8. Just like the G6ET is the fairmont Ghia, we can all cry that xr8 is no more or fairmont ghia is no more but its here wearing s different badge.

Fairmont ghia buyers go and buy a G6ET

XR8 buyers go and buy a GS or XR6T

They are still here!

This maybe so but it doesn't change the fact that GS means nothing to most people under the age of 40 and XR8 does. XR8 has history.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Not to mention gs is 10 - 15 Kay more then xr8

[Perko]

So here's one to throw into the mix. Obviously most people here agree that the XR8 badge has some pull and marketing value. The GS is obviously priced at a level where Ford need to make money on the investment in the motor etc. So we can take the argument out that a XR8 should be heaps cheaper out of the equation. A potential XR8 may be a few thousand cheaper for marketing sake but since the GS has the XR interior anyway except for the cluster then you would assume that pricing would not change so much (should have the XR50 interior would be awesome). The N/A motor will not come over here due to the investment Ford have already done on the S/C motor and volume, so we can take that out of the equation. Bring back the FPV Pursuit nameplate so a ute customer could have a premium interior option and you have the ute market completely covered.

So the question out there to all the diehard XR8 fans. Would you pay the premium for a XR8 ute or sedan that is only a few thousand dollars less than the current FPV pricing?

If the answer is no, then this thread ends and we must accept that the XR8 nameplate will not return in the near future. If the answer is yes (and I would definitely consider a ute with a XR50 interior for example) then maybe there would be a future for the nameplate.

[Brazen]

If I want a V8, I can either buy a Holden locally or drive 5 hours to Brisbane for an FPV... and V8 utes are HUGE around here...used to be a lot more Fords around the place.

Most brands would kill for the national Ford dealer presense. Hence why the Patrol could be justified being rebadged as a Maverick - simply Ford could haul in the rural sales.

Also the XR8 has cred and a reputation. It can sell on that alone. I just dont know how the vehicles can be positioned, thats all. But I dont think there needs to be a massive price difference to make them both succeed. I mean SSV Redline is within spitting distance of HSV offerings, doesnt stop them both selling!


I personally would love to see GS ute sales compared to XR8 ute sales, with the fantastic new Miami engine compared to the old 5.4, if they arnt selling at least 50% more than the XR8 then the strategy would have to have been a failure.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

This maybe so but it doesn't change the fact that GS means nothing to most people under the age of 40 and XR8 does. XR8 has history.

i am just over 40 and gs means nothing to me. sure i have a gs grille on my fairmont and had a gs dash, but although technically incorrect i always find myself saying i want an xr - not a gs

for the younger generation xr is the way to go - even for some old school fans xr is still the way to go. to me the gs was only ever a twin headlight front and better dash set up - with a set of stripes that have never and will never do anything for me

[flappist]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Not to mention gs is 10 - 15 Kay more then xr8

GS RRP is $56k, GT is $72k (oh look the GT has gone up by the same amount as the GS/XR8)
FG XR8 in 2009 RRP was $50k, GT was $65k
BA XR8 in 2003 was about $50k, GT was $60k
AU XR8 in 2000 was about $50k, TE50 was $70k

Do not compare last year plate run out demo prices against RRP.

[tezxr8man]

Originally Posted by kypez

Flame suit on!

As funny as it is, I feel nothing towards the GS badge. Being a Gen Y, I grew up with XR's and always wanted one as soon as I could afford one. The GT's came and went, but the flagship was always the XR8. First chance I got, I bought the XR8.

The XR8 was the "top" model. The GS is a "base" model. It also doesnt inspire any thought or emotion in my mind. Its like, GS. The letters have no X factor. And knowing the heritage of it being the cheaper sibling of the GT, it just doesnt do it for me. Its like saying your drive a Porcshe but its a Boxter...

I'm saving to get a GT but if the GS was actually branded XR8, I'd have upgraded I think... Dont understand why Ford would go to all the trouble of establishing a brand only to drop it for an "unknown" GS...

I agree with this the XR6 and XR8 were something that people aspired to buy for the extra performance and the extra kit that you got with buying 1, since the BA came out Ford has diluted the XR brand down to a nothing experience,
XR6's sell as a base model allmost now and the XR8 is gone from Laziness and that's all.
The XR8 should be N/A with all the goodies or not Depending on if you want a performance car or a nice car that goes great and be a Cracker of a drive, i can't see it being too hard to do it think GS with supercharger Deleted and higher compression.
Not everyone wants a supercharged car, I kind of like a Nice snappy N/A v8

[flappist]

Actually I have just looked up the actual RRPs for the last 10 years
XR8
2011 $56990A $56990M (GS)
2010 $49990A $48330M
2009 $49990A $47990M
2008 $46490A $45990M
2007 $45490A $43990M
2006 $46490A $44990M
2005 $52580A $51330M
2004 $51050A $50130M
2003 $51050A $50130M
2002 $50650A $49880M
2001 $49435A $48715M

GT/TE50
2011 $71290A $71290M
2010 $71290A $71290M
2009 $67890A $67890M
2008 $66590A $66590M
2007 $62460A $62460M
2006 $62210A $62210M
2005 $62210A $61350M
2004 $61000A $59850M
2003 $61000A $59850M
2002 $58350A $57350M
2001 $53950A $53950M

So what does this show:

Over the last 10 years the price of XR8 has been climbing gradually and parallel to the GT/TE except for a short period where the price was slashed to match the XR6T.
Even when it WAS $45k the XR6T still outsold it by a huge margin so obviously PRICE is not the issue so many think it is.
During the same period anything with a FPV badge and a V8 outsold similar T6s by almost 2 to 1. (ref our tech section)

It is rather obvious why Ford/FPV decided to make the car a FPV GS and not a Falcon XR8.

My last question.....how many of those who are crying over the name change ACTUALLY bought at least one NEW XR8 in the last 10 years, or even more than one.

Because if you did not buy any then you are part of the reason they have gone........

N.B. I mean bought personally, not your dad/mum/brother/sister/cousin/uncle/aunt/friend/enemy or someone who you see in the car park at maccas on the weekend.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by flappist

My last question.....how many of those who are crying over the name change ACTUALLY bought at least one NEW XR8 in the last 10 years, or even more than one.

Because if you did not buy any then you are part of the reason they have gone........

You would be better asking "why didn't they buy one"....

Probably because the XR6T was cheaper, faster, lighter, more economical... (need I go on)

And because I bought a used one it is now my fault they don't exsist

[flappist]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

You would be better asking "why didn't they buy one"....

Probably because the XR6T was cheaper, faster, lighter, more economical... (need I go on)

And because I bought a used one it is now my fault they don't exsist

Well if the reason is because the XR6T was quicker what do they thing a N/A 5L V8 is going to do? The XR6T will STILL be quicker...........

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well if the reason is because the XR6T was quicker what do they thing a N/A 5L V8 is going to do? The XR6T will STILL be quicker...........

So why havent you bought the car they built for you, that is the F6E??

btw a 2009 FG XR8 manual retailed at $47,990

a GS manual is $56,990 thats 9 kay..

[Polyal]

The XR6T outsold the XR8 because it's a good package, and it attracts a slightly different buyer than the XR8 although the consumer share traits. a lot of XR6T buyers wouldn't touch a V8 just like some bogan V8 owners won't touch a "ricer" 6T.

The XR6T has also had nothing but praise it's entire life, this is one model Ford has nailed. The XR8 has been touted as a great sounding boat ever since BA, the AU2/3 XR8 was the real last great XR8 and it only just held onto that mantra as the LS1 equipped ss had the wood over it, although the Ford was always the better steer.

The FPV V8 issue has been talked about before, and even you talk about those magic two letters making all the difference, I mean heck all they had tondo is change the sticker pack and it still sold ok, the F6 brand is still in it's infancy with regards to rep and recognition.

As for who buys them, people on this forum are not indicative of the overall marketplace, we are all a little biased.

But since I have been as vocal as anyone on this subject then I can safely say I have not brougt a XR8 in the last 10 years, mainly because I have not brought any new car in that period either. But I have driven and evaluated all the cars noted in this thread so I can form an opinion based on real driving experiences first hand.

In saying that I will be in the market in the next year or so, I am not about to run out and do a pity purchase just because Ford can't get their act together. But when the time comes, and if the GS is positioned and equipped as it is now then no, I would not buy it. What would get my money is a 5.0 na, the same as the mustang so not taking off any of the techno gizmos.

That car would handle well, better than a Miami as it will have less weight, sound glorious while using a reasonable amount of fuel for what the engine is capable of.

Yes that means Ford need to do some more work, but if the Falcon is meant to be around for another 4-5 years then they would want to put some effort in. The 5.0 that I speak of would then lead the way for a G8E ( the Calais V8 sells like hot cakes, even in wagon form FFS). The engine itself is cheap enough, heck average Joe can get on for $9kUSD.

I would have thought FPV would have learnt from the 5.4 venture, that building an engine for this market only doesn't work, hence why GM have done very well to be dropping crate engine in for yonks. Granted at BA the 4.6 would have struggled, but that motor was heavily developed by Ford NA and we could have just received the revisions.

So FPV spend a huge amount building a brilliant engine, and bravo for that, but the engine alone won't sell enough cars to keep them afloat. They could of saved a bundle dropping in a SVT engine...but no...hence why we see a high sticker price for a Miami car and we are expected to just fall inline.

If you are so sure we the consumers were the problem then please enlighten us to why we should have brought a FG XR8?

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well if the reason is because the XR6T was quicker what do they thing a N/A 5L V8 is going to do? The XR6T will STILL be quicker...........

FOR THE SAME REASON YOU ACKNOWLEDGE PEOPLE BROUGHT GTs! The sound, feel and soul a V8 gives that no huffier 6T will ever make.

I for one do not care if a 5.0 would be a tad slower or the same, not that it would be.

[CAT600]

NA XR8 wont happen, so I got an idea.

Buy a GS. Pull the engine, I will give you 12K personally if you cant get an offer higher than that.... I believe you would get around 14K for it in the open market.

Buy the N/A Coyote engine as is for $6500 off Ebay, it will owe you under 10K landed.... if you want I can help you organise the 444hp BOSS 302R crate engine for an extra 5K on top of the 412hp Coyote price.

Install and tune, your "NA" GS will actually come in about halfway between the old XR8's price and what you paid for the GS (or about the same cost with the BOSS 302R engine).

I'm not being facetious... the N/A XR8 makes no business sence at all. The DSC and engine calibrations alone would outstrip the first 24 months profit made.

Daniel

[flappist]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

So why havent you bought the car they built for you, that is the F6E??

btw a 2009 FG XR8 manual retailed at $47,990

a GS manual is $56,990 thats 9 kay..

Because when I was buying they did not have it. I asked if there would be one in the future and was told no. I bought something else.

When they did release it 18 months later unfortunately I was using FORD CREDIT which had gone belly up and sold to Macquarie who were not interested in early termination so I was stuck.

Now I am about to buy a new car and am not sure if I should buy a new F6E for about $85-90k or a less than 2 year old one for $52k or something that actually has RESALE value. e.g. datto cost $62k 3 years later $40-50k (source carsales)

Or maybe just keep the datto, buy a 2 year old G6E for $25k and wait for the FG2.

But another interesting point is that there are not of lot of F6Es being sold so they appear to not be a huge success. Lucky they are just a F6 with the GT-E body trim and interior so there was very little development cost.

But again the bottom line is XR8 is now resting with Fairmont, Sprint, Fairlane, LTD, Ghia, Landau, Sundowner, Forte, Futura, GTHO, Marquis etc.

King XR8 is DEAD......long live the King GS........

[FG50T]

GS is a good name but it should either be 4K cheaper or come better equipped (brakes and or bodykit) to do justice to the FPV image on the road.

Or else put a FORD badge on it.

[RAPID_BA]

Originally Posted by CAT600

NA XR8 wont happen, so I got an idea.

Buy a GS. Pull the engine, I will give you 12K personally if you cant get an offer higher than that.... I believe you would get around 14K for it in the open market.

Buy the N/A Coyote engine as is for $6500 off Ebay, it will owe you under 10K landed.... if you want I can help you organise the 444hp BOSS 302R crate engine for an extra 5K on top of the 412hp Coyote price.

Install and tune, your "NA" GS will actually come in about halfway between the old XR8's price and what you paid for the GS (or about the same cost with the BOSS 302R engine).

Daniel

You have not added in the price of the XR8 badges

[FGX-351]

I get what Flappist means with this.
New engine was going to bring a price rise regardless of name,
FPV selling a higher ratio of V8s to 6Ts it made sense for them to position the model as an FPV and take advantage of this.
And GS name could possibly be to combat the "slow" stigma of the XR8 as mentioned previously.

[tezxr8man]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

You would be better asking "why didn't they buy one"....

Probably because the XR6T was cheaper, faster, lighter, more economical... (need I go on)

And because I bought a used one it is now my fault they don't exsist

Probably because the turbo was faster and shouldn't have been, the 5.4 should have been better but wasn't i would easily rather my AU windsor over the Boss
as you never had to rev the ring out of it to get it going any good. it showed in sales because no1 wants to buy a car that gets spanked buy everything it competed with