Anyone tried the Petrol with Ethanol fuel?

[chevypower]

Filled up with E10 for first time United, Wellington Rd, near Stud Rd (Rowville) drove to Bendigo, just over 1/4 tank not too bad i thought, no power problem either

[The MaDDeSTMaN]

Originally Posted by bindi

I know that in NSW, as some ppl have stated here, that Today Tonight and all those godawful shows kicked up a big stink over both ethanol and toluene, and I can't remember what happened but now we have big stickers on some of our servos which say stuff about the petrol being petrol and nothing else... can't think of it off the top of my head though.

Does anyone remember this, and what was the outcome? I am curious. If I don't use at least Optimax in the Rolla she runs like the Monty Python Machine That Goes Ping.

I remember, I was still working at Shell at the time and every second customer was asking about ethanol. After a week or so we went and added stickers to each bowser that head office had sent us that said there is no ethanol.

[JC]

Ethanol is good for fuel in amixture that does not exceed 90:10 petrol:ethanol. It is distileed from sugar cane so is probably the cheapest way to raise the octane rating of fuel. If you believe that no fuel has ethanol in it, then I think you are only kidding yourself. The only reason servos can say "no ethanol" is that they call it something else.

[Ghiadude]

there is nothing wrong with ethenol fuels.. if you are having advers effects from using them such as stuttering etc you should get your car retuned to suit the new fuel.

Gammaboy yes your right about toluene, it does wonders for turbo cars on the dyno. Due to its higher octane rating you can run a little more boost and in some cases a couple of degrees of extra timing.

[mcflux]

Originally Posted by ltd

Seriously, it is only a small adaption in manufacturing to make an engine run on pure ethanol, and it's also not that hard to adapt existing engines. For the sake of saving billions of dollars that would otherwise go to the saudi's; I really hope we grab this opportunity by the short and curlies and help our sugar, wheat, barley etc farmers out. Sure, we may need 66 litres where we currently use 60, but at 50-60cpl who really cares? I for one would love to hear the price of oil on the television and laugh my head off knowing that it won't effect me anymore.

Go the ethanol.

The problem is that the arabs have a sh*tload of oil, and have a massive undercutting potential. Say an Aussie company sets up a massive Ethanol plant promising to sell Ethanol for under $1/litre, all the arabs need to do is cut back their prices (and the middle men will follow suit) until they match or better the Ethanol price, the Ethanol plant goes out of business, and the arabs jack up their prices again. As long as they've got the monopoly on good old fashioned crude oil, we're not going to see an alternative fuel successfully counter the oil market.

On the other hand, South Africa had a coal-to-oil system for decades, due to sanctions placed on them because of their Aparteid regeime. Because of these sanctions, converting coal to oil was the only way they could fuel their nation. Same with the nazis in WWII.

In Gippsland we had a coal-to-gas plant (the Lurgi plant) which supplied gas to Melbourne until the 70s, when the Bass Straight gasfields were opened up.

It'll always cost more to make oil than take oil.

-Dave-

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by johnydep

OK, I filled up with PLUS ULP @ 112.6
The BOOST 98 was 118.9
Unleaded @ 116.9

I was tempted to get the BOOST 98, but decided I'd try the PLUS 95.

So far I can't feel any difference, but I will keep a close watch on everything, including fuel usage.

OK, here are my findings;
After using PLUS 95, I then filled up with ULP, and yesterday I filled up with BOOST 98.
There seemed to be no power difference with the Plus, fuel usage may have increased ever so slightly, especially at idle (according to the Instantaneous trip meter), but so slight it is hard to be certain.
Boost 98 is a different matter, after switching from ULP the engine is more responsive, and I can see a definite improvement in fuel consumption, not much but it is noticeable.

I've always prefered to use BP & Caltex Premium, but at the prices have found it hard to substantiate for the benefit. The BOOST 98 may be my answer, I'll need one more tank to convince me.

Some more info; http://www.farmersfuel.com.au/

And this is not good for fuel prices; http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...772409154.html

The International Monetary Fund's chief added to the uncertainty, warning the high price of oil posed an increasing risk to global economic growth, which under current estimates will be above 4 per cent this year.

[philby]

Hell I can't see any problem with 5 - 10% Ethanol in petrol. My understanding is that boost 98 is simply normal 91 + 10% Ethanol.

I may even try a test blend myself on the company car, the advantage of working in the chemical industry is that I've got access to a 50T tank of the stuff.

Will do a tad more research but I think a trial is in order, with the work car of course!!!

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

The problem is that the arabs have a sh*tload of oil, and have a massive undercutting potential. Say an Aussie company sets up a massive Ethanol plant promising to sell Ethanol for under $1/litre, all the arabs need to do is cut back their prices (and the middle men will follow suit) until they match or better the Ethanol price, the Ethanol plant goes out of business, and the arabs jack up their prices again. As long as they've got the monopoly on good old fashioned crude oil, we're not going to see an alternative fuel successfully counter the oil market.

This is blatantly incorrect.

Oil is sold as a commodity on a global market. OPEC (or "the arabs") and non-OPEC countries (about 40% is OPEC supplied) supply the oil and we buy it - the market finds the equilibrium at which a price is set. Arabs cant "cut back their prices".

Absolute nonsense and dangerously misinformative.

[brenx]

I've been running it in my 97 EL and 02 Astina for awhile now. I get more k's in it now the computers figured out the tune.

[BJ]

I will not put a sugar by product in any of my cars period.

[Hardtopxb]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

This is blatantly incorrect.

Oil is sold as a commodity on a global market. OPEC (or "the arabs") and non-OPEC countries (about 40% is OPEC supplied) supply the oil and we buy it - the market finds the equilibrium at which a price is set. Arabs cant "cut back their prices".

Absolute nonsense and dangerously misinformative.

So OPEC sell oil at a certain price per barrel,to whom do they sell it to,who says OH look USA has had a hurricane,demand will be up, lets put the price up worlwide,im not bieng facetious here, i honestly dont know..please explain....

[donkeylover]

Does it say in anyones car manual that you should run 96 RON + ? For my old car you had use 96 or above

[brenx]

Both mine say 91ron is fine. A higher ron rating better. My XB's 351 was built to use 98ron and the new 393 is built to use it also. Problem is it's not available everywhere.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Hardtopxb

So OPEC sell oil at a certain price per barrel,to whom do they sell it to,who says OH look USA has had a hurricane,demand will be up, lets put the price up worlwide,im not bieng facetious here, i honestly dont know..please explain....

OPEC and other oil producers basically pump as much as they can be fu**ed pumping. As a general rule, the amount produced globally is just above the amount being consumed globally.

Price is determined by the market - a function of supply and demand... simple economics and is graphed like this:



Price is determined where the supply curve meets the demand curve.

Now picture when a hurricane hits the gulf of mexico and renders a few oil rigs unusuable. The total amount of supply will move to the left (quantity will fall) yet demand (all things being equal) will remain constant. The point where the two lines meet will be higher up - meaning a higher price.

Now that's a bit basic, particularly when talking about oil - at the end of the day, OPEC/non OPEC can only produce a certain amount. They cant keep pumping more and more each day, so the curve would have a weird shape... but that's the basics of it. Oil suppliers do not have direct control over the price, they control the supply. And despite what some say - they supply as much as they possibly can with only minor increases in production being available.

Also a lot of other factors like speculative trading on oil etc etc but that's a bit too much to go into here, lol.

[Hardtopxb]

Thanks 4.9 well explained..

[Steve D]

Other points to consider in the supply-and-demand equation:

• Demand in China rising.
• Increasing supply may also mean increasing capacity. A new refinery, etc. is not cheap.

<Speculation starts here>

Imagine you're in the oil business. You consider building a new refinery/pump as global demand has increased.

• It will cost millions.
• If you build it, global supply will increase because of you, and therefore the price of oil may drop as a result, making the payback time longer.
• If demand happens to go down again, you've got a nice shiny new plant sitting there doing very little. Or you fire it up anyway and the global price drops further.
• Your competitor who didn't build another one is still selling as much oil as he can produce.

So you'd be crazy to build a refinery, etc. until you knew it was a winner. Then, how long does it take to build this stuff? Years?

You get similar stuff in the semiconductor industry, when it comes to building wafer fabs to make all those silicon chips. The result is often a severe shortage, followed by severe oversupply when a number of suppliers get their new fabs running. But at least they don't also have to search for sand with which to make those chips for all those MP3 players and PDAs...

</Speculation>

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

OPEC and other oil producers basically pump as much as they can be fu**ed pumping. As a general rule, the amount produced globally is just above the amount being consumed globally.

Price is determined by the market - a function of supply and demand... simple economics and is graphed like this:



Price is determined where the supply curve meets the demand curve.

Now picture when a hurricane hits the gulf of mexico and renders a few oil rigs unusuable. The total amount of supply will move to the left (quantity will fall) yet demand (all things being equal) will remain constant. The point where the two lines meet will be higher up - meaning a higher price.

Now that's a bit basic, particularly when talking about oil - at the end of the day, OPEC/non OPEC can only produce a certain amount. They cant keep pumping more and more each day, so the curve would have a weird shape... but that's the basics of it. Oil suppliers do not have direct control over the price, they control the supply. And despite what some say - they supply as much as they possibly can with only minor increases in production being available.

Also a lot of other factors like speculative trading on oil etc etc but that's a bit too much to go into here, lol.

Thankyou, a very good explanation. There is one flaw in it that I can see though. This relys on the theory that all the oil companies are both honest and working at maximum capacity. I have no doubt that the oil companies have some very intelligent economists working for them who have the task of advising optimum production levels. These economists understand how a consumer market operates and know how to get the best price for the product. Therefore they limit production to force prices up because as stated demand is not really that variable. I believe it would be naive to believe they are working at 100% capacity, why would they? Then they would have to work harder to achieve less income per volume of product, not intelligent. Considering OPEC countries share 40% of the supply, that is considerable strength to manipulate the supply and therefore the price. Why do you think the owners of these suppliers can afford to drive around the desert in their gold plated Rolls Royces, not because they are working flat out for peanuts.
Adding to this theory is the international environment in which we live, of course a company that has full production capability rubs its hands in glee when a competitor suffers a cut in production due to natural disaster or conflict. They are faced with a choice of upping production to keep the costs the same (work harder for the same amount of money), or keep production the same and charge more for the product (same workload for more money and lots of control). I don't think you need to be einstein to work out which is more attractive to the supplier. Makes it that bit easier to buy that next gold plated roller!
I just hope that BMW is successful with their hydrogen technology, renewable, effective and only produces water as a byproduct, a win/win situation! We should even be able to convert our gas guzzling dinosaur V8's to hydrogen one day and let the V8 live. If we allow the oil companies to control technology, we have signed the death sentence of the V8 and all performance cars to general population.
Personally I will support any technology that takes even some of the power away from the oil companies and puts it back in the hands of australian primary and secondary industry (eg ethanol).

My 2 cents, for what it is worth.

[ShallowCrossing]

All Ford petrol engine vehicles since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on Ethanol mix fuel (E10) except as listed below.
The following models may not operate satisfactorily on E10 fuel because of drivability concerns:
Focus (2002 - 2004), F-series (1986-1992), Ka (All), Maverick (1988-1993), Mondeo (All), Transit (1996 - 2004).
The following models do not operate satisfactorily on E10 fuel:
Capri (1989-1994), Courier 2.0L & 2.6L (All), Econovan (pre-2002), Festiva (All), Laser 1.3L, 1.5L & 1.6L (All), Raider (All), Telstar (All).

Further information can be found at the following link:

http://www.fcai.com.au/ethanol.php/2.../00000001.html

[RG]

I've been using the Boost 98 for a while now and I won't go back to using anything else. EVER. Better responsiveness and economy, that and it's 8 - 10 cents per litre cheaper than optimax or the like. Even Street machine magazine has done a test with it against optimax on an LS1 and once tuned it made 20 more rwhp than the optimax. You can't argue with that.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

Personally I will support any technology that takes even some of the power away from the oil companies and puts it back in the hands of australian primary and secondary industry (eg ethanol).

My 2 cents, for what it is worth.

Great points and nicely brought back on topic. Regarding the comments of estimating opec's excess capacity, this is one of the most topical issues in the world of energy. Makes for some bloody good reading and there's plenty of info out there.

Current global production is something in the order of 73 million barrels per day... about 30m of these coming from OPEC nations.

The international energy agency is probably the closest thing you'll find to an indpendent assessor of global excess capacity and recent figures suggest there is about 1.4million barrels per day which can be brought on line, about 1mil of these coming from saudi arabia (really the only OPEC country whose production is not declining). And then that's it - we all pump, flat out, until it's gone. Thats only an additional 2%... kinda scary when you consider how close to the edge we all skate.

Good article here...

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news...Pxc&refer=home

Sorry to rave on about the stuff, but the mess we've all got ourselves into is fascinating.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by GreenEL

I've been using the Boost 98 for a while now and I won't go back to using anything else. EVER. Better responsiveness and economy, that and it's 8 - 10 cents per litre cheaper than optimax or the like. Even Street machine magazine has done a test with it against optimax on an LS1 and once tuned it made 20 more rwhp than the optimax. You can't argue with that.

Hi GreenEL.
I'll back you up on that. I thought I was imagining things when I first filled up with BOOST 98. But it is spot on to what you've described.
Whether my fuel line or engine is dying inside......don't know. FORD, the ones that made my vehicle, said it's ok so I trust them.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Sorry to rave on about the stuff, but the mess we've all got ourselves into is fascinating.

I absolutely agree, which is why I find it fascinating to see such an increase in the development of effective fuel saving devices and alternative fuel sources. Necessity is the mother of all invention, and I wonder if the oil copmpanies are artificially boosting prices, are they shooting themselves in the foot in the long run? They are increasing the necessity after all!

[geckoGT]

Excuse my ignorance but what is the make up of boost 98, comparative cost (ULP and PULP) and who makes it?

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

Excuse my ignorance but what is the make up of boost 98, comparative cost (ULP and PULP) and who makes it?

Here is some info; BOOST 98 AND PLUS ULP – TWO NEW PETROL GRADES FROM UNITED PETROLEUM

Price wise Boost98 is the same as Standard Unleaded.

[ZC-Cruiser]

Originally Posted by brenx

I tried it in the XB the 95ron one. Not an issue. It's an oxygenated fuel though. So keep that in mind. Meaning you'll use more fuel to make the same power as you did on unleaded. In the end you save nothing. It would have to be at least 10-20c cheaper to make it worth wild.

This article would seem to contradict that:
http://seven.com.au/todaytonight/story/?id=24813

[ZC-Cruiser]

And this article has a lot of good info - including some info on the water issue

Ethanol-blended petrol is a great fuel, so what's the fuss?
By William Wells

The Australian press for the past few months has printed many articles about low-percentage blends of ethanol and petrol. The public has been left with the feeling that something is "wrong" with these fuels, and that the parties promoting ethanol in fuel are trying to foist something on an unsuspecting public that is somehow bad for them.

This article seeks to lay out the truth about ethanol, and as well tell the rest of the story: that it is fuels without ethanol that should give us cause for concern, because of the levels of toxic chemicals that they contain or emit during incomplete combustion.

What is ethanol?
Ethanol is an organic chemical, similar in properties to the hundreds of other components of petroleum-derived gasoline. Yet, there is a big difference: ethanol burns cleaner itself, and also it burns more completely the petrol it is blended into. This is due to the phenomenon of enleanment, possible because the ethanol is already partially oxidised.

Ethanol can be made from fossil fuels such as natural gas liquids or coal, but the source that is most valuable is natural raw materials like sugar cane or grains. This is because the raw material will be remade in exactly the same way during the following crop cycle. This is a result of the action of photosynthesis upon the carbon dioxide released during fermentation at the distillery or combustion in the automobile.

Ethanol and your car.
Engine performance and total emissions are both improved by the addition of ethanol to gasoline. The clean burning nature of ethanol allows you to capture more of the work from the fossil portion of the gasoline, which compensates largely for the lower energy content of ethanol itself. In a 10 per cent blend (E10), all other things being held the same, you might get a zero to 2.7 per cent loss in mileage (kilometres per litre).

Another performance benefit from ethanol is its high octane addition to fuel. Of all the commercially viable octane enhancers possible, nothing delivers more punch than ethanol. The populace still feels the ill effects of the tons of poisonous lead that were spewed into urban environments because of the poor decision to accept lead over ethanol as the octane additive of choice.

Comments have been made in the Australian press that ethanol octane benefits due to an increase in Research number is accomplished at the expense of the Motor number so that the benefit cancels. This is simply untrue. Octane is a measure of the resistance in an engine to damaging knock, which is premature detonation of the fuel before the spark plug fires at the optimal point in the cycle of crankshaft rotation. Research Octane Number is measured under normal driving conditions under light load on a level road. Motor Octane Number is best described as pulling a heavy trailer up a hill; that is, the engine is under considerable load. Like all high octane components added to gasoline, the Research number climbs higher with ethanol addition than the Motor Number, but certainly both values increase.

Other benefits due to ethanol in your car are technical in nature, but may be summarized as follows:

Cleans engine over time, especially harmful combustion chamber deposits.
Improved front end volatility for better cold start and improved operation (driveability and distillation curve effects).
Dissolves any fuel line and fuel tank water, which are sources of corrosion, and eliminates them out the exhaust.
The higher octane of the ethanol blend allows the new cars with higher compression ratio to run without changing refinery operations.
Exhaust versus evaporative emissions.

Adding ethanol to regular unleaded at 10 per cent is an easy way to make unleaded premium, and it extends supplies by 10per cent. Without any modification of the base gasoline, however, the vapour pressure of the fuel will increase slightly, leading to more evaporative, or fugitive, emissions. These are primarily vapours that escape the carbon canister on the automobile, or are forced into the air as the level in a fuel tank rises. They do not include fuel spills, because normally the entire volume of a gasoline spill will evaporate in any case.

The question is whether this greater evaporative mass gives rise to greater pollution potential than the large benefit of exhaust emissions reduction. It is my opinion as a fuel scientist that the nature of the chemical make-up of this new vapour space is less harmful that the unblended, but lower pressure, base gasoline. Ethanol itself, for example, which is now part of the vapour, has a lower ozone-forming potential than olefins and aromatics.

Ethanol and health.
After years of ethanol use in once-polluted major cities in the USA and Brazil, the air is demonstrably cleaner and within federal guidelines for a healthy lifestyle. Not only are toxic species reduced, such as carbon monoxide and aromatics, but also the potential to produce ground level ozone is lower because the elements necessary for its production have been greatly lessened. In particular, high octane benzene, known to cause leukaemia, can be nearly eliminated because ethanol can provide the octane it once did.

The benefit to citizens of urban airsheds is enormous. Cleaner air means healthier people, especially those that suffer from respiratory diseases. Mortality rates will improve, health care visits will decrease in number and severity, health care costs and insurance rates will benefit, and productivity will improve as absenteeism and performance is improved.

Experience
Ethanol has been blended in the US in significant levels since the early 1980s, and today blends of no more than 10per cent are warranted for use in every internal combustion engine sold, whether two stroke or four, land or water use, big engine or small. These are the same types of cars and marine engines sold in Australia, and there is no reason that ethanol blends at 10per cent or less will not work just fine. Additionally, in the US, there is a growing fleet of Fuel Flexible Vehicles (FFV) that runs on straight gasoline, straight ethanol, or anything in between. The number of stations dispensing the preferred fuel, E85, is growing. There are government incentives to car manufacturers for producing FFV.

Here at home, E10 has been trialled by BP successfully in the Brisbane market since April of 2002, with no negative incidents recorded. Over this same period, Q Fleet vehicles have also successfully run on E10. There has been intermittent blending in Queensland historically since 1927. Brazil, which also has abundant sugar resources, began blending during World War I. Today, all gasoline in Brazil contains 22per cent ethanol, and some fuel is straight ethanol. All cars in Brazil are specially designed for these levels of addition.

There are other countries besides the US, Brazil, and Australia that are incorporating ethanol into their motor fuels pool. In one form or another Sweden, France, Spain, India, Canada, Mexico and Thailand are actively using bio-ethanol at some substantial level.

Ethanol energy balance compared to gasoline.
Ethanol yields more energy net to the planet than it takes to produce it. Gasoline, or any fuel derived from fossil sources such as petroleum, cannot possibly do so. You are always at a deficit because you must consume some of the energy contained in the fuel to transport and process it, and you never get anything back. The carbon oxides from combustion add to the atmospheric inventory of other Greenhouse Gases.

With ethanol, the carbon dioxide produced either during fermentation or combustion will be remade into exactly the same amount of plant matter from which it was made. This photosynthetic cycle is what is meant by the renewable nature of ethanol, which in fact is classified as a solar fuel. Doing a complete energy balance, to include inputs at all levels of processing and giving credits where due, still makes for a positive balance using modern methods of farming and ethanol manufacture. This is an important part of what is meant by ethanol being sustainable.

Since carbon dioxide (CO2) is also heavily implicated in the atmospheric build-up of gases that are suspected agents of global climate change, it follows that, if the energy balance of ethanol is improved over fossil fuels, then burning it as a partial replacement for fossil fuels will help to abate these Greenhouse Gases. Further, there are two other subtle ways that ethanol helps in this area: (1) because unburned fuel is reduced in the tailpipe, more of it is being burned to useful work, and therefore additional fossil fuel will be saved; and (2) because of its high octane contribution, ethanol substitutes for aromatics, which give higher yields of CO2.

Another aspect of sustainability involves concerns about stress on the lands and tidal waters if ethanol use increases farming. There is little danger of this, as Australia can divert a portion of the agricultural commodities now shipped in export at increasingly low prices into ethanol manufacture, moving their value up the chain and improving prices for the remaining exports. Not one extra plot of land need be farmed to provide food on Australian tables and to produce fuel ethanol for our domestic needs.

Energy security.
Ethanol is a ready-to-use fuel that can be blended directly into gasoline. Australian refineries convert about 40per cent of crude runs to usable petrol. Therefore, one litre of ethanol produced in Australia substitutes for more than two litres of imported crude oil. This is not only helpful to the balance of payments but also provides us security of fuel supplies with content that is not dependent on foreign and uncontrolled sources. As a corollary, increasing numbers of jobs, in the rural areas where they are needed, will be created with widespread E10 usage.

Limit of ethanol in petrol.
Strong evidence exists that ethanol blends up to 10per cent are, in the words of the US Environmental Protection Agency, "substantially similar to gasoline." Every manufacturer of petrol-burning engines, for any transport application in the US, warrants the use of E10 as acceptable, and some go so far as to recommend it.

While there is no compelling evidence that blends up to 20per cent might cause harm to the current and future fleet of Australian automobiles, neither is there any evidence that harm will not be done, other than good fortune in the experiences so far.

Until such time as credible evidence proves otherwise, and the production of ethanol in Australia is so great that we can afford to provide some blends higher in percentage than E10, it is the opinion of this author that prudence requires that a limit of 10per cent be applied.

What is needed?
In order to grow a viable fuel ethanol industry, the federal government needs to establish a clear policy in support of alternative biofuels, and especially ethanol for petrol. The following actions are suggested for ethanol:
(1) set volume targets with a timetable,
(2) long term excise relief (or domestic producers credit) is needed to give lenders faith that debt will be repaid,
(3) provide a capital subsidy for new ethanol capacity to attract investment capital from potential owners,
(4) devise a mechanism to ensure market access, and
(5) legislate fuel standards that include renewable fuels such as ethanol.

These actions will level the playing field for all stakeholders in the fuel markets and give Australia a good chance or bringing to life a new and valuable industry.

[LTDHO]

I come to the conclusion that Ethanol fuel is only good for EFI.

I have been running my nonEFI unleaded suzuki on it. I find it has alot let power (didn't have alot to start with) and I am only getting 300 out of a tank instead of 350.

Maybe someone who has had their car on the dyno at Hallam performance and hasn't mod'd their car could do a back to back??

So I will be filling it back up with non ethanol fuel tonight.

[The Monty]

I think Ill try boost98 today, although Ive still got about quater of a tank of ultimate in it.

Tried it Once : in an XR6 VCT. Running on 5cyl next day. Had whole fuel system drain and cleaned (injectors.injector rail. new filters )$600 later,Car was back to its old self again. :eclipsee_ Unfortunately It seems here in QLD that they are pushing hard for ethanol fuel as it can be made from sugarcane,and cane farmers are struggling to sell product currently.(State Goverment Initiative) I will not touch it. :thebirds: BP ULTIMATE 4 ME. :

: