FORD will never outshine Holden-no matter what they do? - Page 2

EFPWR · 31-07-2009, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uranium_death

It's quite interesting you mention that.
For the 'distant observer', many people believe that the Holden Commodore has always been an Australian car.

Once again, it's perception, and Holden through slick marketing have placed a cheap covering over people's eyes and convinced people that their cars are the only Australian offering out there.
Wearing a 2008 Geelong Football Club cap caused MANY people to comment on the Ford logo on the side of it, namely, "Why are you wearing a Ford cap? Holden is way better."
If I asked them why 'Holden is beter', the answer was something along hte lines of, "Holden is Australian".

It's about marketing and perception. I hope that that changes eventually and that people's perception can change to something that resembles reality...

Australian? Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they mostly Opel imports? (the commodore series anyway).

That said, I loved my old VK, she was a beast.

However, the EF is slowly taking that spot in me now.. I honestly can't see why there's such rivalry between Holden and Ford. Any car can be made to look good with the right $$ regardless of the badge.

Holden being more 'popular' is purely marketing. Simple.

G6ET8U · 31-07-2009, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uranium_death

It's quite interesting you mention that.
For the 'distant observer', many people believe that the Holden Commodore has always been an Australian car.

Once again, it's perception, and Holden through slick marketing have placed a cheap covering over people's eyes and convinced people that their cars are the only Australian offering out there.
Wearing a 2008 Geelong Football Club cap caused MANY people to comment on the Ford logo on the side of it, namely, "Why are you wearing a Ford cap? Holden is way better."
If I asked them why 'Holden is beter', the answer was something along hte lines of, "Holden is Australian".

It's about marketing and perception. I hope that that changes eventually and that people's perception can change to something that resembles reality...

Yet in bold Ford have sponsored Geelong for 75 years or something... the longest running continual sponsorship in Australian sporting history...

Where is the marketing for that? I only know that because I listen to SEN and hear Billy Brownless on there spruiking the Cats at every opportunity (Go Pies)...

And to go on with your point, perception is everything. Doesn't matter if it is right, if I perceive it to be right then it is until proven otherwise, and from my own personal point of view it was changed when I bought my first Ford, my own personal point of view since then changed a few of my mates 'Only Holden' point of view.

Iggypoppin' · 31-07-2009, 12:30 AM

hate saying this...FORD.CANNOT.ADVERTISE. Blind parrots would create far better ads.

uranium_death · 31-07-2009, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFPWR

Australian? Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they mostly Opel imports? (the commodore series anyway).

Absolutely, and when I tell people that, they are actually surprised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HYPOG6

Yet in bold Ford have sponsored Geelong for 75 years or something... the longest running continual sponsorship in Australian sporting history...

I believe that it may be the longest running sporting sponsorship in the world...I welcome corrections though.

Both of those aside, I think Ford's products are now better than ever and am glad to see that the Falcon has received many awards and a lot of recognition.
As posted in this thread by Falc'man, Ford appears to be a greater consideration for private buyers more now than for a while, so that is encouraging. A better product should do that...

Ryan · 31-07-2009, 12:39 AM

I realize I may get a bit of flack (hopefully not), but anyway...

Before I joined this forum I hated Ford, but this forum has done me wonders if I'm being honest for my outlook on cars beside Holdens.

I bought a VL, because I always liked them. Ever since my uncle owned a 5L Calais back in 1988. I was never suckered into the "Australia's own car" stuff Holden preach on. At first I didn't know VLs had a Nissan engine, but it didn't particularly bother me when I found out.

I didn't get into Holdens because of their alleged Australian heritage, it was mainly because I liked the product itself. Being brought up watching Brock drive VPs/VRs also had alot to do with it too.

Even as much of a Holden fan as I am I have often thought about buying a Ford at some stage.

I don't really care that much now. To me they're just cars. I always take enthusiasm in seeing a nice Ford however. Even when I'm wearing my Holden apparel. V8s are a bit different. I'll always support Holden when it comes to racing, but I tend to leave my support for Holden in the V8s, and my appreciation for cars separate.

G6ET8U · 31-07-2009, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uranium_death

Absolutely, and when I tell people that, they are actually surprised.

I believe that it may be the longest running sporting sponsorship in the world...I welcome corrections though.

Both of those aside, I think Ford's products are now better than ever and am glad to see that the Falcon has received many awards and a lot of recognition.
As posted in this thread by Falc'man, Ford appears to be a greater consideration for private buyers more now than for a while, so that is encouraging. A better product should do that...

Too right they are, and so they should be. I have driven many Holden's and HSV's and my mate before he got a G6E Turbo just like mine had a VY Clubsport R8 and couldn't get rid of the brake squeak. Was told it is part of the package... performance brakes and all... wtf. Let alone my base model XR6 Turbo being a nicer place to be in (his words not mine) than his VY Clubsport at the time. In the end he also agreed and went to Ford rather than another Holden.

Mark s · 31-07-2009, 12:44 AM

One other thing, without trying to be to Ford biased.

People go on about so many taxi's being Falcons. There has to be a reason why they are taxi's and I have mentioned it to so many Pro Holden folks. It's because they are reliable.

I also go into the Falcons I have owned since 1994. EB 6 and V8, EF fairmont, AU 2 Forte. I will not go into earlier models or the AU 2 XR6 as it was a lease car and I only has it for 6 months.

EB Falcon wagon. It was 60,000 when I bought it and sold it with 240,000. This car kept going along with basic servicing and never missed a beat.

EF Fairmont has clicked over 190,000 now again it has a service history, I have put 65,000 on it with oil changes on the engine and box + plugs, air filter and it still runs like a dream.

AU 2 Forte - Bought it with 32,000 on the clock and sold with 146,000 again same basic services and never an issue with the car.

Funny thing is all the Falcons I have owned over the years and I will exclude the AU2 XR6 as it was 6 months only. But I have owned 9 Falcons and all have survived with basic servicing and never had an issue.

Out of all my biased Holden mates, I have turned one and after 20 + years of owning Holdens, he is buying a FG Turbo as he was that impressed with my BA Turbo.

I have owned 1 Commdore and it was a 5 speed VL. What a great car. I have also had various Commodores when I worked for Telstra and I found the VN, VR and VS (series 1) to be crap, always in and out of the workshop. VT I felt was a marked improvement and a nice car to drive. I am sure the series 2 VS would have been the same.

VE 4 speed V6 for a modern car, I am sorry is crap and I dont understand how they sell so well, with the 5 speed FG.

Trendy ad's do sell and we just have to look at VB sales to prove this.

timmo · 31-07-2009, 12:48 AM

I don't think it has that much to do with advertising, it's loyalty ingrained through generations. Very similar to passion for a football club or code for that matter, and this makes it very hard to overcome.
I'm sure there are Melbourne members on here that wouldn't hear a bad word said about AFL, and would in fact be quite dismissive of league or union...and vice versa. Why should it be any different for brands of cars?

dallasv8 · 31-07-2009, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketscientist

Because...Holden is... AUSSIE! AUSSIE! AUSSIE! OI! OI! OI! :rolleyes:

its a pity that holden never made a car while being australian owned.

i was born in 76 and grew up with fords.first car the olds had that i remembered was an escort van lol.most of my cousins and uncles drove and still drive fords.one uncle even owns a wreckers that deals in mainly ford parts.
ive owned quite a few fords xa,xc,xd's,xf,ea,eb,ef,au and ba. not to mention 4 banger fords as well.
i liked them all,some had a few little niggles but overall they have all been good reliable cars,and all have a good shape,especially the au xr i had.
ive never test driven a new car,and ive never been dissapointed with how my new fords have been.
always been a Ford fan,always will.

vztrt · 31-07-2009, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Or could it possibly be that even here on AFF, the home of the true believer, Ford enthusiasts appear to be whiny, whingey, sad sack, glass is half empty, wusses.

FFS you all sound like poms on holiday.

Ford can do no right....... like GTHO, F6, Territory, XR6T, FPV GT etc etc.

Holden can do no wrong...... like 4 cyl commies, apollo, camira, sunbird, VK commies, epica, tigra, calibra.....

NO, the reason why Holden seems to shine is that their fans see all the good things whereas ours........well just read this thread.

Unfortunately your right. No matter what Ford do someone will say something about it how its not good enough.....people calling for a diesel terri, the car gets announced and oh they should have done this, FPV release a limited edition model...oh its a sticker pack (even if it give your more for the same price)....blah blah blah.

Go have a read on a Holden forum, I love my Holden its sooo good...he says about his clapped out VN. Ford lovers are harder to please, even when the car is better they will complain.

Swordsman88 · 31-07-2009, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

Unfortunately your right. No matter what Ford do someone will say something about it how its not good enough.....people calling for a diesel terri, the car gets announced and oh they should have done this, FPV release a limited edition model...oh its a sticker pack (even if it give your more for the same price)....blah blah blah.

Go have a read on a Holden forum, I love my Holden its sooo good...he says about his clapped out VN. Ford lovers are harder to please, even when the car is better they will complain.

Here here!!! Fully agree with you vztrt...and flappist got this right too. its the chicken or the egg situation. Is it the 'poor reputation' Ford has that reduces its fan base, or is it the fans themselves who just don't respect the brand. Probably a bit of both. Truth is that Ford fans are a sceptical lot, we demand more for our support and patronage, and we are more critical. No amount of 'advertising' will truly convince us until we've driven, critiqued, winged and moaned and then decided to buy that car. And then we complain it was too high a price, they 'stuffed up' that front end styling and why did it take so long for them to launch the model. Or better still, complain about all the misguided Holden plebs who abuse us because we 'drive a Ford', as if FoMoCo is responible for every brocky loving bogan!!!

But it works both ways too. Part of the reason Ford makes so many great models...critically aclaimed at that, is because their customers demand better. Whether its because they don't have the 'australian history' perception or the loyal brocky fan base Ford has to perpetually 'earn its stripes', they are never given a free kick.

On the other hand, the history of Holden is nothing more than one huge free kick....and it shows.

DOC · 31-07-2009, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uranium_death

It's about marketing and perception. I hope that that changes eventually and that people's perception can change to something that resembles reality...

if perception is a result of marketing then it will never resemble reality, unless they market reality of which i doubt.

4Vman · 31-07-2009, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Or could it possibly be that even here on AFF, the home of the true believer, Ford enthusiasts appear to be whiny, whingey, sad sack, glass is half empty, wusses.

FFS you all sound like poms on holiday.

Ford can do no right....... like GTHO, F6, Territory, XR6T, FPV GT etc etc.

Holden can do no wrong...... like 4 cyl commies, apollo, camira, sunbird, VK commies, epica, tigra, calibra.....

NO, the reason why Holden seems to shine is that their fans see all the good things whereas ours........well just read this thread.

ROFLMAO

whales · 31-07-2009, 09:50 AM

Holden are smarter at marketing than Ford are simple as that.

For instance "Aussies are tough so are Holden" pulling the good old heart strings.

Thats my 2 cents worth anyway

MITCHAY · 31-07-2009, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Or could it possibly be that even here on AFF, the home of the true believer, Ford enthusiasts appear to be whiny, whingey, sad sack, glass is half empty, wusses.

FFS you all sound like poms on holiday.

Ford can do no right....... like GTHO, F6, Territory, XR6T, FPV GT etc etc.

Holden can do no wrong...... like 4 cyl commies, apollo, camira, sunbird, VK commies, epica, tigra, calibra.....

NO, the reason why Holden seems to shine is that their fans see all the good things whereas ours........well just read this thread.

Another top post mate. Whinge whinge whinge

Have any of you guys considered that maybe just maybe they might like Holden cars?

Maybe they don't care about 100000kw or 80 speed fancy autos. My mum couldn't tell you how much power or gears it has and she doesn't care. Is she stupid? No, it's just what she liked.

We've had 2 Commodores and while they are no exhilarating performance machines IMO they have been reliable and have done the job quite fine as a daily driver.

Cobra · 31-07-2009, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uranium_death

I believe that it may be the longest running sporting sponsorship in the world...I welcome corrections though.

It is the longest running consecutive sponsorship in the world. It's 79 years and counting.

Cobra · 31-07-2009, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snappy84

Your probly right there , before i even new what holden and ford were i remember being at my gran's wacthing what i assumed to be bathurst and i was going for peter brock 05 . Thats all i remember it wasn't till my step sister meet this fella that had a xa gt and he took me for a spin . An i have been ford this ford that ever since .

i allthough it really bugs me that everything holden does allways gets praise an ford can do the exact same thing and get hung for it. Hell the very last survey i read was that holden owners were the least happy with there vehicle purchases but hey holdens go better.

One thing for ford though is these turbos of ours seem to have a bit of a cult like following . The street im working on at the moment there are 4 other houses being built just up the road and out of the 6 cars park out the front every morning of these building sites 3 are fg xr6t utes .

Check your location mate. There's a lot of Ford employees driving around in new cars. Although these utes would be builders, over all there more new Falcons in Geelong than Commodores. But it does surprise me how many older model commodores you see getting arund G town, and what's particularly perplexing is seeing commodores in Ford employee car parks.

uranium_death · 31-07-2009, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOC

if perception is a result of marketing then it will never resemble reality, unless they market reality of which i doubt.

Stupid paradox!

Wally · 31-07-2009, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

...............

Go have a read on a Holden forum, I love my Holden its sooo good...he says about his clapped out VN. Ford lovers are harder to please, even when the car is better they will complain.

I did as you suggested and had a looksee at LS1 forums. Apart from a couple of tongue in cheek threads about the 2.0T, they tend to talk about their Holdens in deference to anything Ford. They seem to be quite comfortable in their skins. Not sure if there are predatory members, but I didn't notice any obvious ones, so the discussions seem to be open. First impressions and all that.

I used to root for the minis at Bathurst and marvel at the Holden and Ford arm wrestles, with no particular preference. Couldn't care less since it became a two horse race.

GT450 · 31-07-2009, 10:41 AM

To the OP i have followed motorsport , specifically Fords for the past 40 years and i remember a journo once asked Bob Morris the difference between Holden and Ford fans as he had come across from the dark side. His answer was Ford fans are loyal , they will be there when you are not winning the other side are not. I have found this to be the case over all those years in the Brock era there was only him and 75 percent of the grandstand at Sandown was for him alone, but you know what, Moffat beat him, Johnson beat him and boy that gives you one of the best feelings you 'll ever have at the races . Ford fans are not sheep we don't follow just when we are winning ,holden fans do ,watch the numbers drop away when they are down.
Ford make a better car not everyone is aware of that but don't talk them down bacause a race team has gone to the darkside . Think how much better we will feel when we beat them
Cheers
GT450

Powdered Toast Man · 31-07-2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I dont believe that for a second.... Its hereditary....

Exactly what I think.

It's actually the true reason that I'm a Ford fan. It was hereditary, my dad is a Ford man. It's not that he hates Holdens or other makes he just always had a Falcon when I was growing up. That was passed onto me and one of my older brothers who is a devout Ford nut (the only other cars he likes are the Italian and European supercars since he works on them all day).

Odly enough one of my other brothers favours Holdens because of the marketing hype and supposed reputation they have. He for some reason thinks Fords are unreliable bits of rusty crap and Holdens are like swiss watches when it's normally the other way around. When I mentioned some of the interior rattles I have in my BA he says thats because it's a Ford and that I should have bought a VE since they are built so great lol. I should mention he doesn't actually own a car and hasn't for many years. He's a temporary Australian (ie bike rider).

My Mum works for Holden and there is no way she will ever buy one! She's not a Ford fan though just anti Holden. But it's not the cars she hates so that's probably another story......

Chilla · 31-07-2009, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tapeworm

Its very much an Ozzie are Holden thing vs Ford are yankie thing...average joe will tell you this, imho.

Holden is also yankee (General Motors). Ford (America) was built in OZ before Holdens were ever thought of. I vividly remember seeing one of the first Holden display 215's (FX), driving around Camden showground in Sydney in late 1948. Whereas Ford were built / assembled here prior to the first world war. The Holden name was lifted from a coach building firm that made bodies for quite a few different car brands in the early days of our motoring history. Ford has a strong history in this country, lets not be confused about that!.

bathurst77 · 31-07-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pks54

Because we are football, meatpies, kangaroos and Holden cars..............

Interestingly even that slogan isnt Australian.
It was originally
Baseball, Hot Dogs, Apple Pie and Chevrolet,

It was soo succesful in getting the idea that chev IS usa that they exported it all over the world.
I know South africa had a version too.

GTJOHN · 31-07-2009, 11:50 AM

Only reason is the media flocks to Holden stuff and they get favourable press from most Motor mags.... They spend more on marketing...Pity they cant make a car that actually lasts as long as a Ford will ..The falcon and its 6 are one of the best and longest lasting motors ever ..... Holden just gets parts from its parent and other subsiduaries and say they make the best cars...
Overhyped crap......... Once the kingswood was stopped ...hoklden has made crap since...

Ryan · 31-07-2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilla

Holden is also yankee (General Motors). Ford (America) was built in OZ before Holdens were ever thought of. I vividly remember seeing one of the first Holden display 215's (FX), driving around Camden showground in Sydney in late 1948. Whereas Ford were built / assembled here prior to the first world war. The Holden name was lifted from a coach building firm that made bodies for quite a few different car brands in the early days of our motoring history. Ford has a strong history in this country, lets not be confused about that!.

To be honest if it wasn't for Falcon I don't think Ford have as strong of a presence. If you asked most people what cars Ford were building before 1960, most probably wouldn't be able to tell you. If you asked most people what cars Holden were making before the Commodore they would have the F series, E series, H series Holdens, Monaros, and Toranas to fall back on.

This is where I think alot of the popularity for Holden comes from. Everyone knows Holden started with the FX. Alot of people who aren't as knowledgeable about the automotive industry probably think Ford started making cars with the first Falcon. (XK)

It also doesn't help that alot of people see Ford as being American as it shares the name with its parent company. Holden on the other hand has its own identity.

I'm not trying to start an argument or anything. I know Ford has been making cars longer than Holden has in Australia, I'm just trying to state facts.

GTJOHN · 31-07-2009, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

To be honest if it wasn't for Falcon I don't think Ford have as strong of a presence. If you asked most people what cars Ford were building before 1960, most probably wouldn't be able to tell you. If you asked most people what cars Holden were making before the Commodore they would have the F series, E series, H series Holdens, Monaros, and Toranas to fall back on.

This is where I think alot of the popularity for Holden comes from. Everyone knows Holden started with the FX. Alot of people who aren't as knowledgeable about the automotive industry probably think Ford started making cars with the first Falcon. (XK)

It also doesn't help that alot of people see Ford as being American as it shares the name with its parent company. Holden on the other hand has its own identity.

I'm not trying to start an argument or anything. I know Ford has been making cars longer than Holden has in Australia, I'm just trying to state facts.

The E & H series were still basically what a kinswood became..only difference is after cusomline's and anglia's ...Ford has kep the Falcon name through the years , whereas holden has gone through a few, Preimier, Kingswood, Broughman, Commodore...shitebox and so on....
Falcons were there in xl, xm , xp and so on.. holden just couldnt come up with a name that stuck

greenfoam · 31-07-2009, 12:22 PM

My mum bought a brand new VH Commodore, drove it for 15 years and it never let her down once or ever needed ANYTHING replaced, not even a waterpump, nothing.

She bought a near new AU, she hasn't has it as long as the VH obviously but it's also been pretty good, it hasn't done many ks but it's got a dodgy lifter had a door handle fail and the brake caliper sieze up but still shes happy with the AU also. That's what sells cars. I grew up with the VH and learned to drive in it so for me I like Commodores better than Falcons since it proved it's worth to me by being there reliable and taking me everywhere I went during my childhood. When I learned to drive in it I thought it was the best thing ever, I actually bought a VH not long ago because I remember how nice it was to drive

Most families own Commodores so in the end most kids will buy them also (most likely the model the family had as they were growing up as a first car too)

Changing that is a long term thing. I will say that my first car was a Ford: ) (escort) and I liked it, but I wouldn't buy a Falcon. I've driven heaps of them but they just don't drive "right" to me. ie not like a Commodore, I guess it just depends what you are used to. The euro Fords are still a favorite thing of mine and my wife drives the new Fiesta and I actually much prefer to drive that over anything else I've ever driven, it's that good

Ryan · 31-07-2009, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenfoam

My mum bought a brand new VH Commodore, drove it for 15 years and it never let her down once or ever needed ANYTHING replaced, not even a waterpump, nothing.

She bought a near new AU, she hasn't has it as long as the VH obviously but it's also been pretty good, it hasn't done many ks but it's got a dodgy lifter had a door handle fail and the brake caliper sieze up but still shes happy with the AU also. That's what sells cars. I grew up with the VH and learned to drive in it so for me I like Commodores better than Falcons since it proved it's worth to me by being there reliable and taking me everywhere I went during my childhood. When I learned to drive in it I thought it was the best thing ever, I actually bought a VH not long ago because I remember how nice it was to drive

Most families own Commodores so in the end most kids will buy them also (most likely the model the family had as they were growing up as a first car too)

Changing that is a long term thing. I will say that my first car was a Ford: ) (escort) and I liked it, but I wouldn't buy a Falcon. I've driven heaps of them but they just don't drive "right" to me. ie not like a Commodore, I guess it just depends what you are used to. The euro Fords are still a favorite thing of mine and my wife drives the new Fiesta and I actually much prefer to drive that over anything else I've ever driven, it's that good

I've owned my VL for 6 years, and apart from the problems here, and there I can't say it's given me a headache. I'll more than likely own another in future. Preferably a 5L Calais though.

The thing is though before my VL my family, apart from my uncle never owned a Commodore. My grandad owned a FX, my great grandad owned a HK GTS, my other uncle owned a EH, and HZ, and my dad owned quite a few HRs.

Despite my roots to Holden my first car was a Cortina. Although it wasn't my choice it served its purpose, and I still somewhat miss it today.

I also admire the European Fords too like the Focus, Escort, Sierra, Mondeo etc. If I was to buy a small car I would more than likely end up with a Ford.

GT0132 · 31-07-2009, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pks54

Because we are football, meatpies, kangaroos and Holden cars..............

Agree with PKS54 there.

Holden is a brand synonomous with being Australian and there is a lot of history in the Holden brand associated with Australia and being Australian.

There is no such thing with the Ford brand, nor was there with Chrysler when Australia had that other big family car in its line up, the mighty Valiant.

I'm a blue oval man through and through but we gotta face reality and realise that Holden is a bit more than just a car manufacturer, it's symbolic of the Australian way of life whether we like it or not....Has been for decades

You can even ask a group of New Zealanders what make of car they associate most with Australians and 9 times out of 10 their answer will be Holden

greenfoam · 31-07-2009, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

I've owned my VL for 6 years, and apart from the problems here, and there I can't say it's given me a headache. I'll more than likely own another in future. Preferably a 5L Calais though.

The thing is though before my VL my family, apart from my uncle never owned a Commodore. My grandad owned a FX, my great grandad owned a HK GTS, my other uncle owned a EH, and HZ, and my dad owned quite a few HRs.

Despite my roots to Holden my first car was a Cortina. Although it wasn't my choice it served its purpose, and I still somewhat miss it today.

I also admire the European Fords too like the Focus, Escort, Sierra, Mondeo etc. If I was to buy a small car I would more than likely end up with a Ford.

My Daily is a VP 5litre, I've had it 3 or 4 years and it's been given a hiding, had about 120 passes down the drag strip and maybe 1000 test runs:P it's constantly got rubber all over the 1/4 panels but it's never ever let me down either. Love the motor.... the rest of the car maybe not but it's good enough (ie holds the motor in there)