ANCAP – It wasn’t us who stuffed up Lane Keep Assist (LKA) and Emergency Lane Keeping (ELK)

[Citroënbender]

From a philosophical perspective, though - is it not easier on the mind to ultimately identify and forgive an “at fault” human than a machine, should a terrible event play out?

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

From a philosophical perspective, though - is it not easier on the mind to ultimately identify and forgive an “at fault” human than a machine, should a terrible event play out?

On the flip side, what if a tragedy occurred as a direct result of a safety feature being turned off or disabled?

Many humans can't even perform simple functions like turning lights on when conditions require it.

The reduction in road toll over the long term is a result of car safety improvements. Any further downward trend will come only as a result of further technological improvements.

Human behaviour hasn't changed in millennia and won't change.

[FTE217]

correct prydey and tech and safety arguments etc will just keep go round and round in circles forever and a day.
Thats human - some people are OTT some are not some in the middle.
So for eg when the day comes that tech and safety will run everything you do what will the human complain of next ?
There will always be accidents even run by machines, there will be line fault that the oncoming car when conditions require headlights on actually are not working.
What next my friend ?
Considering the increase of pop and cars on the road I'm impressed of the figures back when not much tech was in cars as sad it is to see or numbers re fatalities.
Tech isn't the saviour might I add, its useful no doubt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tralia_by_year

[T3rminator]

Dad's Tank 300 has ELK. Its auto on and has to be turned off every time you start the car.

Personally I hate it, it has on a couple of occasions adjusted the steering more than I had expected, which gave me the feeling of loss of control for a split second.

But for Dad, I think it might be a worthwhile feature. He is getting on and sometimes "strays" a little.

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

I think you'll find that it's been proven in the aircraft industry that humans have been the cause of far more accidents than automated systems.

That's not to say that automated systems aren't infallible, tho.

Mate of mine is a cargo plane pilot. Tells me its very difficult to crash a plane these days due to all the auto safety features. You'd really have to have full intent on doing it or turn off all the features.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

I think you'll find that it's been proven in the aircraft industry that humans have been the cause of far more accidents than automated systems.

That's not to say that automated systems aren't infallible, tho.

Humans will continue to do it, but the automated systems still have their problems, one crash is too many as the saying goes.
Big issue these days is a lot of safety features are dumbing down drivers with their responsibilities, where do you draw the line.

[Sprintey]

Two relatives were commercial pilots, flying everything from Tiger Moths to 747-400s; one was involved in the worldwide peak air safety body. My own industry was Occ Health and Safety. Like in aviation, make sure a safety system works properly before you release it into public use.

My relatives were aghast at this incident when it happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5NXpar4Ouw

And sometimes engineering creates it own new situations which it tries to solve with smart software, which may not tested to all situations that could possibly develop in the real world. Ideally a skilled pilot will be able to interpret and overcome any difficulty that can come up, but when they are faced with something novel they may not have been warned to anticipate, and systems that behave erratically or seemingly illogically, disaster can result:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfQW0upkVus

[EBSXR6]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

I think you'll find that it's been proven in the aircraft industry that humans have been the cause of far more accidents than automated systems.

That's not to say that automated systems aren't infallible, tho.

Because humans are involved nothing is infallible.
I read a road test report that a vehicle travelling in a 100 Km/h zone suddenly slowed to 60 Km/h.
The reason was there was a ute in front of the test vehicle transporting road signs and the test vehicle detected a 60 Km/h sign.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by EBSXR6

Because humans are involved nothing is infallible.
I read a road test report that a vehicle travelling in a 100 Km/h zone suddenly slowed to 60 Km/h.
The reason was there was a ute in front of the test vehicle transporting road signs and the test vehicle detected a 60 Km/h sign.

How many cars actually have intelligent cruise? This is the only system I'm aware of that will link speed sign recognition with auto speed control. The new Everest has it. These features are just that. Features. They can be adjusted or turned off and no requirement to default to on. These aren't the issue.

Speed sign recognition by itself won't adjust the cars speed. Also a feature albeit a handy one.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Itsme

Big issue these days is a lot of safety features are dumbing down drivers with their responsibilities, where do you draw the line.

This gets trotted out every time. I'm surprised it took this long.

Where is the evidence?

[simon varley]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Yet no warning and defaulting to on every time you start the car, go figure

well, both my 2019 focus and my 2021 transit have a physical switch for LKA that remembers the on/off setting, and can also be configured to either warn, or aid, or both.

Nowhere near as annoying as start/stop.

[simon varley]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

many of these cars are not fit for purpose and thus unpurchasable.

I don't know what those reviewers were on, but right now, AFAIK, not a single car on the road will actually slam the brakes on itself. That's next gen AEB and I don't believe it's on the roads yet. What the cars will do, is increase the braking already applied, to increase deceleration if the car feels it is needed. I've driven cars with ADAS features for nearly twenty years now, and while I fully accept they can be annoying, I don't think a single one was what I'd call dangerous.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by prydey

This gets trotted out every time. I'm surprised it took this long.

Where is the evidence?

Ive seen a few learner cars with LKA or the likes. I have no info to say its 'dumbing' drivers. I just thought they'd be better off learning without it. I know if it were my kid learning id prefer the system was off but maybe im old fashioned

Our Hyundai has LKA or whatever their system is. Its not intrusive or anything and has never caused any issues. Was strange at first as id never driven a car with it now its hardly noticeable.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by prydey

This gets trotted out every time. I'm surprised it took this long.

Where is the evidence?

I guess for me 50 years of driving with my observation of other road users, again apologies if my qualifications and experience does not satisfy you.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Itsme

I guess for me 50 years of driving with my observation of other road users, again apologies if my qualifications and experience does not satisfy you.

Ok, so we have a thread saying these systems don't work and are dangerous but at the same time you (and others) claim these systems are dumbing down drivers because drivers rely on the systems instead of learning. To me, that would imply the systems were capable.

So which one is it? Are the systems capable or incapable of assisting drivers?

How exactly are drivers being dumbed down? I'm curious.

We all drive and we all observe.

[PG2]

Guys, this thread has been going so well. Let's not turn it into a thread between two who have a difference of opinion.

Speaking of which, everyone has been posting up their opinion. I have not seen any evidence produced from either side.

Also, let's not turn it into a thread where we see who can post up the most links.

Everyone, please play nice.

[simon varley]

I think the clue is in the name. these are Driver ASSIST features (Advanced or not). They are not autopilots and the only risk imo is that some people might consider them so, and effectively switch off any decision making process for themselves.

my opinion again - that's the 'dumbing down'. Not the features themselves, but that they make driving so easy for 99% of the time that people zone out, and then the 1% comes along and they have an accident.

[prydey]

My view is, the road toll is largely trending down. Yes, there will be spikes etc but over the long term it is trending down. Even with the rising population over the years and many more people on the road the road toll generally still tends to trend down over time.

Now you can either believe the govt incentives work (if so, I have a bridge for sale) or you can believe it's largely due to advances in car safety.

I strongly believe it's the latter.

I'm not advocating for autonomous cars here either. A large percentage of accidents are from people not seeing something or not staying in their lane. I believe ultimately these systems will benefit society and protect people from themselves.

Are some systems lacking finesse? Obviously they are given the reports but should they be abandoned? I don't think so.

[PG2]

A question that I have just thought about, are people taught how to use all of this technology properly? I don't just mean that a sales person shows you the features when you buy a new car but are new younger (and older for that matter) drivers being taught how and when to use it as part of learning how to drive?

[whynot]

Originally Posted by simon varley

AFAIK, not a single car on the road will actually slam the brakes on itself.

I would have to disagree with you on that point Simon.

My 2014 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV had Forward Collision Mitigation and radar cruise control. Drive southbound on Gympie Rd, Aspley (near Hungry Jacks) in the left hand lane. With no other traffic around and approaching Windrest Ave, it would occasionally beep loudly and then slam on the brakes. The only thing I could put it down to was the FCM picking up on the traffic lights as it view swept across them during the curve.

It would also scream out and trigger the brakes occasionally if there the car in front car did a left hand turn, even though I was a good distance behind. Not sure what was causing it, but the 'puter on the Outlander certainly braked checked the odd car behind me in the three years I had it.

And when the computer does brake check, as a driver there is nothing you can do about it because the 'puter kills the throttle as well.

Video from Mitsubishi about 2018 version of the PHEV saying that the FCM will apply itself.

[Captain Stubing]

Originally Posted by simon varley

I don't know what those reviewers were on, but right now, AFAIK, not a single car on the road will actually slam the brakes on itself. That's next gen AEB and I don't believe it's on the roads yet. What the cars will do, is increase the braking already applied, to increase deceleration if the car feels it is needed. I've driven cars with ADAS features for nearly twenty years now, and while I fully accept they can be annoying, I don't think a single one was what I'd call dangerous.

We have a work vehicle (Isuzu DMAX) in the Wide Bay Burnett area in Qld that took to slamming on the brakes randomly. It's an isolated case, and it's now no longer in operation. It's also not yet been replaced, creating a workload issue.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by PG2

Speaking of which, everyone has been posting up their opinion. I have not seen any evidence produced from either side.

OK, some articles from academia on the topic of these technologies.

International Journal of Industrial Ergonomics

Volume 86, November 2021, 103213

Shared steering control: How strong and how prompt should the intervention be for a better driving experience?

Abstract

The lane keeping assistance system, a representative advanced driver assistance system, comprises a shared control that cooperates with the driver to achieve a common goal. The steering experience of the driver may vary significantly depending on the auto-steering control strategy of the system. In this study, we examined the driving experience with various steering control strategies. Nine control strategies (three torque amounts × three deviations in starting control) were established as prototypes. Eighteen drivers participated in the evaluation of each strategy in a highway environment on a driving simulator. A two-way repeated measure ANOVA was used to assess the effects of the system. Both the objective measures (standard deviation of lane position, steering reversal rate, and root mean square of lateral speed) and subjective measures (pleasure and arousal of emotion, trust, disturbance, and satisfaction) were evaluated and analyzed. The results showed that a torque amount of 3 Nm evoked feelings of high disturbance and negative emotional responses. A deviation in starting control (DEV) of 0.80 m yielded unstable lane keeping performances and evoked negative effects on pleasure, trust, and satisfaction. A regression model for the driver satisfaction recommended a torque of 2.32 Nm and a DEV of 0.27 m as the optimal design parameters. This proposed strategy is expected to improve the experience design of lateral semi-autonomous vehicles.

-------------------------

And here is some food for thought about these tools and driver engagement.

Traffic Psychology and Behaviour

Volume 82, October 2021, Pages 400-411

Disengagement from driving when using automation during a 4-week field trial

Abstract
Introduction
A small body of research on the real-world use of commercially available partial driving automation suggests that drivers may struggle with or otherwise lapse in adequately monitoring the system and highway environment, and little is known about key issues such as how behavior associated with system use changes over time. The current study assessed how driver disengagement, defined as visual-manual interaction with electronics or removal of hands from the wheel, differed as drivers became more accustomed to partial automation over a 4-week trial.

Methods
Ten volunteers drove a Volvo S90 with adaptive cruise control (ACC), which automates speed and headway, and Pilot Assist, which combines ACC and continuous lane centering. Instrumentation captured automation use, secondary task activity, hands-on-wheel status, vehicle speed, and GPS location during all trips.

Results
The longer drivers used the Pilot Assist partial automation system, the more likely they were to become disengaged, with a significant increase in the odds of observing participants with both hands off the steering wheel or manipulating a cell phone relative to manual control. Results associated with use of ACC found comparable or lower levels of disengagement compared to manual driving as the study progressed.

Discussion
This study highlights concerns about vehicle control and the degree to which drivers remain actively in the loop when using automation. Calls for implementing more robust driver monitoring with partial automation appear warranted—particularly those that track head or eye position.

And this little section from the body of the report ...

The current study focuses on partial driving automation (henceforth “partial automation”) and one of its subcomponents, adaptive cruise control (ACC). Partial automation combines ACC and lane-centering functions to automate vehicle speed, time headway, and lateral position. Despite the separate or combined control provided by ACC or lane centering, the driver is fully responsible for the driving task when using partial automation (Society of Automotive Engineers, 2018). These systems are designed for convenience rather than hazard avoidance, and they cannot successfully navigate all road features (e.g., difficulty negotiating lane splits); consequently, the driver must be prepared to assume manual control at any moment. Thus, when using automation, the driver has an added responsibility of monitoring it. This added task results in what Bainbridge (1983) describes as a basic irony of automation: while it removes the operator from the control loop, because of system limitations, the operator must monitor the automation; extended automation monitoring, however, is a task that humans fail at often (e.g., Mackworth, 1948, Warm et al., 2009, Wiener and Curry, 1980).

To compound this irony, ACC and partial automation function more reliably, and drivers’ level of comfort using the technology is greater in, free-flowing traffic on limited-access freeways than more complex scenarios such as heavy stop-and-go traffic or winding, curvy roads (Kidd and Reagan, 2019, Reagan et al., 2020). Researchers frequently use interstate roads with light traffic as a low-complexity condition when studying sustained attention and fatigue, which supports the notion that driver workload on limited-access roads is relatively low (Faure et al., 2016, Patten et al., 2006). Taken alone, findings of lower levels of perceived workload (de Winter, Happee, Martens, & Stanton, 2014) and improved situation awareness (Beller et al., 2013, Endsley, 2017) during ACC or partial automation use suggests that drivers may benefit from spare attentional resources. However, research shows that use of partial automation on freeways with moderate traffic can also be associated with slowed response to targets in the periphery, reduced levels of arousal (Biondi et al., 2018), and longer glance durations to in-vehicle displays (Gaspar & Carney, 2019).

-------

San Jose State University
SJSU ScholarWorks
Mineta Transportation Institute Publications

Drivers’ Response to Scenarios when Driving Connected and Automated Vehicles Compared to Vehicles with and without Driver Assist Technology

...The tests by IIHS revealed ACC reacted aggressively in some scenarios while failing to react to already stopped vehicles in some other scenarios. Similarly, LKA was also observed to steer over the shoulder in some cases where the lanes weren’t detected.
...
Most tests on ADAS like ACC and LKA are performed under safer conditions compared to real-world traffic conditions and with better-trained drivers. Also, it is possible that such systems make drivers more reluctant and less prompt when driving. Further, a few consumers also complained of LKA not working properly at nighttime and in rainy weather condition.
...
While ADAS makes driving tasks easier on one hand, they may inadvertently make driving more difficult. The ADAS takes up certain driving tasks making a driver’s job easier to some extent, but the driver needs to be alert at all times to take over automated driving functions as soon as any of these systems fail to react or disengage.

[MITCHAY]

I will avoid all this crap as long as I can as well as these touch controls.

The bird next to me can't park straight front in to save her life yet I can reverse park using only mirrors in a manual.

The amount of times I have seen these tanks with blindspot indicator in the mirror yet push on me is ridiculous.

How the **** I can see it but they can't. It's all crap. In theory good but reality is a different thing and lowers standards.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by prydey

My view is, the road toll is largely trending down. Yes, there will be spikes etc but over the long term it is trending down. Even with the rising population over the years and many more people on the road the road toll generally still tends to trend down over time.

Now you can either believe the govt incentives work (if so, I have a bridge for sale) or you can believe it's largely due to advances in car safety.

I strongly believe it's the latter.

I'm not advocating for autonomous cars here either. A large percentage of accidents are from people not seeing something or not staying in their lane. I believe ultimately these systems will benefit society and protect people from themselves.

Are some systems lacking finesse? Obviously they are given the reports but should they be abandoned? I don't think so.

Correct car safety.
More so how much more we have learnt and Govs and Safety awareness bodies advertising and educating people of the wrongs when on the road.
The speed limits decreased.
Flashing road signs.
School zones.
Improved dual carriageways nationally.
Rest coffee snack stops after 2/3hr driving.
Police awareness.
Media alerts
Mobile alerts
I’m sure I have missed many other road aids.
Tech in cars is one piece of the puzzle importantly imo it still depends on the user but many now are none the wiser.
Look at the type of drivers on the road today.
Htf did they pass for one thing - and most driver aids they hardly comprehend in any case.
With all the parking sensors in modern cars how many parking scrapes you notice on some lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by whynot

I would have to disagree with you on that point Simon.

My 2014 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV had Forward Collision Mitigation and radar cruise control. Drive southbound on Gympie Rd, Aspley (near Hungry Jacks) in the left hand lane. With no other traffic around and approaching Windrest Ave, it would occasionally beep loudly and then slam on the brakes. The only thing I could put it down to was the FCM picking up on the traffic lights as it view swept across them during the curve.

It would also scream out and trigger the brakes occasionally if there the car in front car did a left hand turn, even though I was a good distance behind. Not sure what was causing it, but the 'puter on the Outlander certainly braked checked the odd car behind me in the three years I had it.

And when the computer does brake check, as a driver there is nothing you can do about it because the 'puter kills the throttle as well.

Video from Mitsubishi about 2018 version of the PHEV saying that the FCM will apply itself.

Our car will also apply the brakes in the Collision system is turned on, ive been in the car when its applied the brakes.
But it does have some limitations like speed and what not. If you are stopped at the lights and the car in front moves off and you dont it'll remind you

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by simon varley

well, both my 2019 focus and my 2021 transit have a physical switch for LKA that remembers the on/off setting, and can also be configured to either warn, or aid, or both.

Nowhere near as annoying as start/stop.

I30N has button on steering wheel for LKA but it doesn't completely disable it, you've got to navigate through the touch screen vehicle settings to turn them off completely.

If you turn LKA off with the steering wheel button it still kicks in and it'll bring up warnings randomly on the dash to 'check front safety systems'.

It's got all these fancy safety systems but it's cruise control can't manage it's speed up and down hills

[kevino]

Originally Posted by simon varley

I don't know what those reviewers were on, but right now, AFAIK, not a single car on the road will actually slam the brakes on itself. That's next gen AEB and I don't believe it's on the roads yet. What the cars will do, is increase the braking already applied, to increase deceleration if the car feels it is needed. I've driven cars with ADAS features for nearly twenty years now, and while I fully accept they can be annoying, I don't think a single one was what I'd call dangerous.

Nup.
2020 Skoda Fabia $18990 drive away. In lane 2 on Pacific Mway at Eagleby.
Leaner driver moved into my lane with out looking. The Skoda applied heavy braking with no input from me and saved an accident.

2022 Ford Puma turned right -car coming the other way - I wasnt going to collide but merely be behind his bumper as he went past. Puma slammed the brakes on with no input from me and then stopped and the stops start turned the engine off with another car coming lol.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Look at the type of drivers on the road today.
Htf did they pass for one thing - and most driver aids they hardly comprehend in any case.
With all the parking sensors in modern cars how many parking scrapes you notice on some lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mass migration from third world types, and we recognise their licences and qualifications now with that new free trade agreement.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by FTE217

More so how much more we have learnt and Govs and Safety awareness bodies advertising and educating people of the wrongs when on the road.
The speed limits decreased.
Flashing road signs.
School zones.
Improved dual carriageways nationally.
Rest coffee snack stops after 2/3hr driving.
Police awareness.
Media alerts
Mobile alerts
I’m sure I have missed many other road aids.

We'll have to disagree...

I believe statistically while the road toll is trending down the number of accidents isn't and the numbers of hospitalisations from motor vehicle accidents is actually increasing.

This to me highligts that human behaviour doesn't change regardless of any govt scheme etc. The cars are keeping people alive from accidents that once would have been fatal but the number of accidents is still increasing.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Mass migration from third world types, and we recognise their licences and qualifications now with that new free trade agreement.

While local kids have to go through 120 hours logged, tests, probably lessons, it's head-scratching the double standard.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by prydey

We'll have to disagree...

I believe statistically while the road toll is trending down the number of accidents isn't and the numbers of hospitalisations from motor vehicle accidents is actually increasing.

This to me highligts that human behaviour doesn't change regardless of any govt scheme etc. The cars are keeping people alive from accidents that once would have been fatal but the number of accidents is still increasing.

Sorry mate you’re in another mind set.
Speeding had decreased immensely on the roads be it suburbia and more so on freeways.
People are aware cops are around, distance cameras, cameras in so many places sure there is still the rabbits who test the boundaries but nothing like in the past.
That’s Gov schemes, double demerits weekends might I add.
IF you don’t think that has contributed to facilities and or accidents to a % let me know otherwise.
These examples are not driver aids and huge deterrents on today’s roads.
I mentioned before about type of drivers today talking hospitalisations - tech didn’t warn them or help I guess, if they had modern cars that generally the carpark is between 12/14yrs so a lot have tech that they ignore or switch off or as I said a lot of people who got a license as Franco mentions - all the tech in the world isn’t going to save them or us coming towards them.
Anyway I’m done here, tech is good and not imo.
We are teaching an entire young population how they are not responsible for their actions but tech and HR will save them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk