International Engine of the Year 2005

[Des]

BMW's may look like crap (to me at least), but their engine technology is top of the class, no arguements. The new V10 is exceptional. Anyone who can pack that much (very recent) racing tech into a feasible mass production engine deserves praise. Remember everyone, more revs equals more horsepower, that's why F1 engines rev to 19000+ rpm. To take that and make it workable (and with enough down low torque) on the street is genius. Read the specs, magnesium this and that - butterfly less induction etc., etc.
Well done to their engineering dept.. Now if they could only get Chris Bangle to see how ugly his themes really are....

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by micmansour

The cars i listed all cost below 500K. I stand by what I said too. Shouldn't you be at school or something?? sleep:

Yep, and they're all 2x the cost of the E55...

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Steffo

I don't get why people like that engine so much... quite overrated like everything else BMW has made this past decade.

C'mon Steffo, I'm going to be as nice as I can here, but you're really being a knob now mate.

BMW has produced some of the finest motorcar engines on the planet, and the this latest technological marvel is no exception.

Sit back and have a good look at the numbers before you type this drivel.

Rick.

[Perana]

Id take a new M5 anyday... even though its ugly just for that engine !... Also having SEEN with my own eyes an E46 M3 Engine apart that is a great engine too... very nicely designed so i can imagine how nicely designed the new V10 is..

What about the Porsche 911 Turbo.... Motor List it as doing 12.39 compared to the E55's 12.94... Then theres the 911 Turbo S with more power and torque as well ! yes they are dearer than the E55 but they are still under 350k...

BTW Steffo... F1's have basically NO low down torque... Obvioulsy they are all wrong in their thinking then !

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Perana XR8

Id take a new M5 anyday... even though its ugly just for that engine !... Also having SEEN with my own eyes an E46 M3 Engine apart that is a great engine too... very nicely designed so i can imagine how nicely designed the new V10 is..

What about the Porsche 911 Turbo.... Motor List it as doing 12.39 compared to the E55's 12.94... Then theres the 911 Turbo S with more power and torque as well ! yes they are dearer than the E55 but they are still under 350k...

BTW Steffo... F1's have basically NO low down torque... Obvioulsy they are all wrong in their thinking then !

F1 cars rev to nearly 20,000rpm, and weigh very little. An F1 car would be an absolute pig to drive on the road. As would most other professional race cars. What's the point in even comparing them to street cars.. totally different vehicles.

[Lukeyson]

another thread raped in the **** by steffo, good on you ! :

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by XR8fella

another thread raped in the **** by steffo

Why's that? Because I don't agree with what everyone else thinks?

[Perana]

Im not comparing them to street at all... just saying that by your reasoning if they had low down torque they would be much faster....

BTW: anyone can add forced induction to an engine to make it powerful... the great designers and manufacturers get the power without artificial aspiration...

Back on topic... Good on BMW for winning it.. they design and manufacture great engines if only their cars werent so damn ugly !

[MustangNicko]

No, `cause your a goose and sometimes you may say things just for attention.

[M&Ms]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Yep, and they're all 2x the cost of the E55...

They may cost twice the E55, but you initally said that Nothing under 500K is going to outrun it, and not by a long shot Now, answer this, are those cars less than 500K or not??? Now stop wasting your time on your school's computer and get back to learning about Shakespere.

Now about the M5 engine, I have a pic which shows an exploded view of the engine and it's internals, I might try dig it up and post it for those interested. Looks awesome and well done to the engineers at BMW for producing such an engine. Well deserved award IMO.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Perana XR8

BTW: anyone can add forced induction to an engine to make it powerful... the great designers and manufacturers get the power without artificial aspiration...

That statement shows a great lack of knowledge... I'll leave you to it then.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by micmansour

They may cost twice the E55, but you initally said that Nothing under 500K is going to outrun it, and not by a long shot Now, answer this, are those cars less than 500K or not??? Now stop wasting your time on your school's computer and get back to learning about Shakespere.

Its Shakespeare.

And yes, they're under $500k, but they're not far from it either.

Why is it that people get so angry, abusive, defensive, offensive etc when someone doesn't agree with popular opinion?

[Perana]

Ill let you explain why it shows a lack of knowledge..... Forced Induction is the EASY way out...

And why do the majority of the Big Performance car makers stick to N.A then... BMW, Lotus, Ferrari, Maserati, Aston Martin, Lamborghini.. i could go on all day.....

BTW how many engines have you had apart and rebuilt... how much time have you spent actually WORKING on cars...

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Perana XR8

Ill let you explain why it shows a lack of knowledge..... Forced Induction is the EASY way out...

And why do the majority of the Big Performance car makers stick to N.A then... BMW, Lotus, Ferrari, Maserati, Aston Martin, Lamborghini.. i could go on all day.....

Lotus Esprit wasn't n/a. Lotus Elise 240R (their new one that's unfortunately not making it here) is not n/a.

And all the fastest factory cars in the world are not n/a. Porsche Dauer 962 LeMans (3.0 Twin Turbo 6cyl), Porsche 911 GT1 Strassenversion (3.6litre Twin Turbo 6cyl), Koenigsegg CCR (4.7litre Supercharged V8), Koenigsegg CC (4.7litre Supercharged V8).. etc etc. I could go on all day too.

Calling forced induction the "easy way out" demonstrates a lack of knowledge on your behalf.

[M&Ms]

Originally Posted by Steffo

And yes, they're under $500k

Thankyou. Now that wasn't hard was it. Maybe you should edit your earlier comment then. :yeees:

[M14A-Mclaren]

Just fyi, current F1 engines produce somewhere between 250-290 lb-ft (338-392Nm) of torque with that figure peaking at around 14,500rpm. Expect bhp (or kW if you want)to peak around 3000rpm higher than the torque peak e.g. 18,500rpm, and the rev limiter to cut in a further 500-1000rpm higher than that.

[Perana]

Porsche Dauer 962 LeMans (3.0 Twin Turbo 6cyl, Porsche 911 GT1 Strassenversion (3.6litre Twin Turbo 6cyl) both are basically detuned race cars.... they are NOT production cars....

Care to explain why Ferrari and Maserati have dropped turbocharging from their range...

Ferrari F50/Enzo/ and the forthcoming Dino, BMW/McLaren F1, Maserati MC12, Porsche Carrera GT, Pagini Zonda, Merc CLK GTR, where should i stop... these are some of the greatest supercars around... they are all N/A why is this... supercars.net have listed the top 10 modern supercars... 7 are N/A...

It is the EASY way out... head into the eseries section and have a look at all the people fitting turbo kits... its easier and cheaper than getting power N/A...

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Perana XR8

Porsche Dauer 962 LeMans (3.0 Twin Turbo 6cyl, Porsche 911 GT1 Strassenversion (3.6litre Twin Turbo 6cyl) both are basically detuned race cars.... they are NOT production cars....

According to who's definition?

Originally Posted by Perana XR8

It is the EASY way out... head into the eseries section and have a look at all the people fitting turbo kits... its easier and cheaper than getting power N/A...

If you want a lecture on why saying that forced induction is the easy way out, PM me. That goes for anyone else too. I stand by what I say, regardless of what any given car manufacturer chooses to do with its own products for its own reasons.

[MustangNicko]

How isnt it the easy way out? Answer that here.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Calling forced induction the "easy way out" demonstrates a lack of knowledge on your behalf.

Forced induction IS the easy way out.

Ports, valves, VVT, is far less important when using forced induction.

Anyone can produce a powerful engine with forced induction.

However to produce an engine which is powerful, high revving, civilised, complies with all current tight emissions, is no easy task.

You may just have a different opinion here Steffo, however when you make silly statements like claiming BMW have always been overated, that becomes something else.
Lets not confuse opinion with common sense.....

Rick.

[Perana]

Really i DGAF what you think Steffo... Go and read your magazines

Back on topic now...cant wait to see what they come up with for the new M3.. should be good !

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Steffo

If you want a lecture on why saying that forced induction is the easy way out, PM me. That goes for anyone else too.

Why use PM, we have no secrets here?

Forced induction is easier simply because there are fewer compromises.

Typicaly as engine power is increased, higher RPM's are needed, which results in less low RPM performance.
It's a juggling act as to how much low end performance can be sacrificed.

Technology like multiple small valves, variable valve timing, variable inlet manifolds and much more all help to keep an engines powerband as wide as is possible. There are of course compromises.

With forced induction, all what is needed to produce more power is to wind the boost up (essentially).
RPM doesn't even need to be increased.
Flat torque curves can be achieved.
All what needs to be upgraded as power is increased is engine stength and cooling capacity. This is easily achieved with stronger conrods, pistons, bigger radiators, etc.
VVT, multi valves and all the other techo stuff is far less critical.

BMW's efforts with NA engines is second to none, whether or not a forced engine can produce more power is irrelevant, the fact remains BMW know what they are doing, and they are still the company by which other engines are judged.

Rick.

[Donut Queen]

I'm not picking on you Steffo but I find it interesting that you always seem to have a different opinion to the majority. Is this because you have more knowledge than everyone else? Knowing your age and experience are not superior to everyone else on this forum, I think that perhaps you might be a little more humble and open to the opinions of those older and with more experience than you.

[BA GT-HO]

Steffo maaate...

You gotta get out more man. Don't worry about what magazines say!

For me the V10 in the M5 is a better motor than the E55 motor.

Why?

Like someone said before, I have seen the pictures of the motor pulled apart, and WOW. It's simply amazing to look at. Plus it is faster than the E55 as the video shows.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Donut Queen

I'm not picking on you Steffo but I find it interesting that you always seem to have a different opinion to the majority. Is this because you have more knowledge than everyone else? Knowing your age and experience are not superior to everyone else on this forum, I think that perhaps you might be a little more humble and open to the opinions of those older and with more experience than you.

I know I'm younger then alot of people on here. However, the majority is not always right. I don't think I've ever in my life conformed with popular opinion, and I never will. I have an opinion of what the recipe for a fast and/or excellent street car engine is, and the one factory car I know of that is pretty much perfect IMO is the E55 AMG. And, from what I have seen, I have formed an opinion that BMW is talked up to be alot better then they really are. For example, the E46 M3. Apparantley that engine is supposed to be one of the sweetest sounding 6cyls around. I've heard a few of them driven in anger, and they don't sound sweet at all, they sound like they're in pain when you give them some. Its also not that quick (definitley not as quick as its talked up to be), nor does it corner as well as most people say it does. The interior is kind of tacky (ok, that's got no bearing on the mechanics, but that's what I think of the M3). The old M5.. well, it was also a bit overrated. It wasn't any better performing then a 300kW GTS was, and it didn't sound as good. It wasn't any faster then the E46 M3 was either.

Basically, if you want to know what I think makes an excellent street car (and we are talking what is in essence a big sedan, not a little super handling sports car or a race car, both very different things).. it goes as follows..

- Lots of torque.. available from down low.. 2000rpm and up, carried throughout the rev range

- Decent amount of horsepower, peaking at sensible, useable rpm (in the 6000s max)

- Sensibly sorted gearing, both in transmission and differential

- Decent size rubber

The new M5 complies with two of those things.. the gearbox/diff and the tyres. 373kW @ 7750rpm and 520Nm @ 6100rpm.. that's really not suitable for a street car IMHO. Who revs their car to such high RPM's on the street? Even if they have one capable of it? Do you do it on a daily basis, all the time? Would you want to do that to get anywhere, to overtake someone, etc? Its peaking torque where in my opinion, it should be peaking power/preparing to shift gears.

Anyway, enough thread hijacking. If anyone wants to continue to debate with me, I'll gladly do so in PM.

[Chris]

Boss motors ROCK man :evilking:

[MrSparkle]

I'm still waiting on the technical paper from Steffo to back up his "opinion", on the deficiencies and oversights on the new V10. I would also appreciate being included on the response from BMW to said paper once he has submitted it to them.

Let's not stray from the main topic here which is the ENGINE, not the CAR!

Steffo back up your claim that this V10 is "overrated" with a technical basis please, or take your off-topic opinion to a new thread.

[johnydep]

The engine has two modes; P400 & P500 (Normal & Power.

The ECU is the most powerful available in a production car.

The Torque curve is flat & broad.

What other engine produces 100bhp per litre?

Here are some excerpts from AUTOCAR mag ; http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=46135

...a 90deg V10 that makes 500bp at 7750rpm, is red lined at 8250rpm with the fuel being shutdown at 8500rpm. Even with BMW's double Vanos variable valve timing, peak torque of 383ib ft isn't reached until 17deg offset crankshaft hits 6100rpm.
Sounds peaky in the extreme. Not so, and not because the M5 allows the driver to choose between the (comparatively) mild-manned 400bhp mode and the instant responses of the 500bhp.....
Push the powerbutton and you instantly feel the difference. P400 is quick..... but P500 dispenses an altogether more aggressive performance. So close is the acceleration to the new Porsche 911 Carrera S's.......

In either P400 or P500 mode the engine's tractability is extraordinary. Try pulling from 1500rpm in seventh: there's no strain. It's a remarkable achievement when equated with the V10's rev-happy abilities and linear power delivery.

100bho per litre

Working with possibly the most powerful automotive ECU in a production car - the Siemens MS S65 is capable of 200 million calculations per second......

The M5, one of the great cars, demolishes its rivals........

Verdict;
M5 - 4.5
Maserati - 3.5
E55 - 3.5

[Des]

Steffo,
To put it simply, it's much, much harder to get any hp out of a N/A engine than out of a chemically/ mechanically assited engine (of the same, or smaller in this case, size). The N/A motor MUST be much more efficient, to break the 100 hp/Litre mark especially. To then make this motor work day-in, day-out in all weather/ temperatures....
In round figures:
E55 350Kw (476hp) out of 5439cc = 64.35Kw/Litre (87.51hp/Litre)
M5/6 373Kw (507hp) out of 4999cc = 74.61Kw/Litre (101.42hp/Litre)
These figures are quoted from the company sites. Less power from a larger engine.

*edit: Yes I know numbers don't tell the whole story, but there a good indicator in this case!*

[Steffo]

350kW is 469hp not 476hp (that's 355kW). And 373kW is 500hp not 507hp... but anyway..

Wheels July 2005 they average 17.1 litres/100km in the new V10 M5, fuel use. That's 13.75mpg (miles per gallon).

Let me call on another Mercedes product here.. the bigger, 12 cylinder, twin turbo, 6.0litre, more powerful, faster S65 AMG. It gets 19mpg 12.38 litres/100km average consumption.. with 1.0litre extra capacity, 2 extra cylinders, two turbochargers, 450 kiloWatts, 1000 Newton metres.. and a few hundred extra kilogram's to pull around.

http://www.buyacar.co.uk/technicalSp...onyq7004.jhtml

Explain to me again how that thirsty V10 is efficient?